RLP 251: Florence Matilda Creer – A Favorite Photo

Nicole Elder Dyer (0s):
This is Research like a Pro episode 251 Florence Matilda Creer, A Favorite Photo. Welcome to research like a Pro, a genealogy podcast about taking your research to the next level. Hosted by Nicole Dyer and Diana Elder accredited genealogy professional. Diana and Nicole are the mother-daughter team@familylock.com and the authors of research like a pro, a genealogist guide with Robin Worland. They also co-authored the Companion Volume Research like a Pro with DNA. Join Diana and Nicole as they discuss how to stay organized, make progress in their research, and solve difficult cases.

Nicole Elder Dyer (40s):
Let’s go. Today’s episode is sponsored by newspapers.com, break down genealogy brick walls with a subscription to the largest online newspaper archive. Hello everyone. Welcome to research like a Pro today. Hi Nicole, how are you doing? Hi, mom, Diana. I’m great. And you know, last episode I promised I would tell everyone more about my Dyer research that I’ve been doing and how, how I’ve been kind of organizing all my multiple test takers and I have kind of this method that I’ve been doing. I have a lot of test takers. I started with my father-in-law, then I recruited his two brothers.

Nicole Elder Dyer (1m 20s):
Then I expanded to like six of his third cousins who all descend from John Robert Dyer, who is the research subject. I’m trying to find his father and mother, but mostly I’m focusing on the dire line right now. So I’ve got all those and then there was a Y DNA match that was an exact match that came in last year at 111. And so that’s an extremely important match. And that individual, his d n results have been shared with me on Ancestry. So I have, not only can I see that he’s A Y D N A match, but I can also see his autosomal matches now and also his sister.

Nicole Elder Dyer (2m 1s):
So I have those two who descend from a different dire line that I haven’t connected to my dire line. Then I have another person who’s shared with me who also has a dire line. She’s a distant DNA match to my father-in-law. And I thought that by looking at her matches, it would help to see if they truly were related on that dire line. And the person who manages that kit was somebody who follows us. And so she had reached out to me and I thought, well, you know, maybe I can figure this out if I look at her matches and kind of see things from her perspective. So I’ve got three test takers who, who don’t descend from John Robert Dyer, but who descend from related dire lines.

Nicole Elder Dyer (2m 45s):
And then I’ve got about 10 that descend from John Robert Dyer. So I have a lot, and it’s really fun. I work mostly in Ancestry right now. What I do is when I find a relevant match who descends from Baldy Dyer or one of the other dire lines that I’m working on, I put them in Airtable and then I group my Airtable DNA match details table by the match, and then I go to the Matches profile page and I use that dropdown list to see if that person matches any of my other test takers, which are like 13 people. And so I go through each one and do like pairwise comparisons.

Nicole Elder Dyer (3m 25s):
Have you ever done that before?

Diana Elder (3m 27s):
Yeah, when I was doing my Cox project and creating that McGuire chart, that’s exactly what I did.

Nicole Elder Dyer (3m 33s):
Yep. So it actually works out really well. And then I just put all of the people who match that person in my Airtable log, which is grouped by the match. And so I have, let’s say there’s a match named Diana Smith. Then I have like four or five matches to Diana Smith all grouped into one little section. And it’s rare that I’ll find most of my test takers match the person. Usually only like four or five or six of the people will match that individual. Every once in a while I’ve come across a match who matches everyone, like they match 80% of my test takers and it’s kind of cool, but usually it’s just some of them.

Nicole Elder Dyer (4m 18s):
So that’s how I’ve been doing it. And when I find a new match like that, I always look at their shared matches to make sure that they’re matching other descendants of John Robert Dyer, or for the three test takers who aren’t descendant from John Robert Dyer. I look to see that they are matching other people on the project that aren’t on a different line. And often while I’m looking at the shared matches list, I find another match who’s relevant. And so I open them up and I look at their profile page and see if they match all of my test takers. So it’s been really exciting. And the main takeaway that I have from this project is that the dire lines from Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, and Tennessee are very difficult to trace with documentary research.

Nicole Elder Dyer (4m 60s):
And there are trees that have all kinds of different parents for people, lots of conflicts, few sources. And I’m just finding that I’m going to have to do a lot of the documentary research to link up these lines that I’m finding because they all have kind of different people as the parents of their end of line known ancestor. You know, they’ve hypothesized different people and they’ve put in these different guys for their dire line, but I’ve been finding that some of them I think are probably more accurate than others. And actually had a big find over the weekend. I was looking at one of these D N A matches I’d found and looking at the family search tree for one of their ancestors, a James Dyer who was supposedly a son of Baldy Dyer.

Nicole Elder Dyer (5m 49s):
And you may know that I’ve researched Baldy Dyer in the past because I’d seen some DNA matches from him and I hadn’t really had success with locating his parents or his descendants just, he kind of died in the war of 1812. And it was hard to trace those children forward. Well, I found this one match who traced back to a James who was supposedly a son of Baldy and his family search profile had a link to a book written by a, a Watson b Dyer, published in the eighties. And it had tons of research on all these dire lines from Virginia and North Carolina and, and just a lot of documentary research putting families together. And a lot of it just seemed really high quality.

Nicole Elder Dyer (6m 30s):
And I was super excited because it had a whole section on Baldi and it had a will in Russell County, Virginia, where Baldy Dyer’s father mentions him and his will. So now I have bald, he’s father and his brothers. So I’m really excited.

Diana Elder (6m 44s):
That is so exciting. How fun that there was that other source out there that you found just by looking at profiles on family search and the sources there?

Nicole Elder Dyer (6m 53s):
Yeah, I always look at the sources because I wanna see, like I said, there’s been so many trees without source citations and without documentation. So if I see an individual with sources, I’m like, oh, this is great.

Diana Elder (7m 4s):
Right. What did they find? Oh, that’s exciting. Yeah. Okay. So I have a question for you back on your air table. So are you going to then put these matches in your lucid chart or do you already have a A charting diagram?

Nicole Elder Dyer (7m 17s):
Yes, I actually need to update my diagram because like I had said, there were a lot of incorrect or conflicting ancestors back before the 1820s. So my lucid chart currently reflects some inaccuracies from people’s trees. And what I think I’m gonna do is wipe out all of those people from the older times, and I’m just gonna have the matches going back to their most distant ancestor that’s been verified with sources. Then I’ll just kind of leave it nice link and I’ll see what I have at that point. And I think I’ll have them in kind of little clusters, which I already kind of have like all the descendants of this Sarah Ellen Dyer who married a cope.

Nicole Elder Dyer (7m 58s):
I have like five matches descending from her, but her father is kind of unknown. So I have her cluster. Then I have this James and this Archibald who’s supposedly come from Baldi. Then I have the Y D N A matches line who all come from John David Dyer and Eliza York. So I have these little clusters of people that I can’t tie together yet, but I have some hypotheses. But what I need to do is just do the documentary research myself on each of them to see who their likely parents are and knowing that they all converge at some point will help.

Diana Elder (8m 30s):
Well, and the more you work on families like this and you do the research, you just start making connections. You recognize locations and names, and so when you look at a new record, maybe it will mean more to you than just looking at it dry without any of that background knowledge.

Nicole Elder Dyer (8m 49s):
Right. And after looking at so many DNA matches on this side of the family, I really start to get a clue of where people lived. And I had no idea there was a huge branch of Dyers in Georgia that are related, but this is where the Y D N A matches line lived. So it’s just interesting to see how the family started in Virginia and then just spread all over the south. And

Diana Elder (9m 9s):
We see that all the time. Well, that’s great. Thanks for sharing that with us. I really love your idea about how you are using Airtable. I’m going to adapt that with what I’m doing, and that is one of the reasons why we love Airtable, that ability to group by each DNA match and then see who matches them. That’s really great. That’s super helpful. Yeah, how fun.

Nicole Elder Dyer (9m 33s):
And you know, every once in a while I’ll come across a match that I think looks relevant, and then it only matches one of my test takers and I’m like, oh, that one actually isn’t relevant. That must be related on a different side of the family.

Diana Elder (9m 45s):
Yes. Well, when I was working on my Royston case and I was evaluating the matches, I saw one match that had three potential common ancestors, and none of them were a royston. So it gave me a clue that, okay, maybe this match is not on the Royston side and it’s on a different side of my test taker. So we always have to be aware of that possibility when we’re working back so far in time that there could be another ancestor that contributed that dna.

Nicole Elder Dyer (10m 13s):
So true

Diana Elder (10m 13s):
Well still announcements. We have our Airtable quick reference guide available for PDF download on our website, and we have our Research Psycho Pro webinar series for 2023 ongoing, where we have monthly case studies featuring the research Psycho Pro and research psycho Pro with DNA process. And we’re enjoying this so much. We’ve heard so many good comments from people saying that they just love seeing how we actually do the work. How do we do this research, how do we write it up? So it’s been really, really fun and we invite you to join us. So for me, we have got a guest presenter, Barb Growth, who will be presenting a case study from one of her research like pro projects.

Diana Elder (10m 57s):
And that is who are the parents of Catherine and Elizabeth Seer. So that seems like that will be just fascinating. We’re excited to now, Barb, come on and present for us. Our next research site, CPRO Study Group is coming up quickly. This will be beginning the end of August and go through November of 2023. This one is not with dna, but it’s an excellent foundational piece if you want to add DNA to your research. In the next study group, which will be in the spring with dna, we have the peer group leader application on our website. And we would love to have anyone apply who’s been through the research like a pro process and knows how to do this work using our process.

Diana Elder (11m 37s):
We have our newsletter, which has coupons for sales on our our various courses, and we would invite you to join us. All right, so upcoming conference. The end of this month, we have the National Genealogical Society Family History Conference in Richmond, Virginia, which we’re very excited about. I will be going out to Virginia for the very first time, and I hope to see many of our listeners there. And I am currently working on getting all my presentations into shape. So many fun presentations I get to do, and they’re all brand new, sharing a lot of my genealogy tips and tricks.

Diana Elder (12m 18s):
So it’s going to be a fun conference. Well, today for our episode, we are going to talk about one of my 52 ancestors blog posts. So this year I’m trying to write every week about an ancestor using the prompts from 52 ancestors that Amy Johnson Crow puts out. One of the fun prompts was titled A Favorite Photo. Well, you probably have favorite photos just like I do, and it’s hard to choose just one. But I just kept coming back to a photo that I have of my grandmother, Florence Matilda career in her early years. I only knew her as an older woman, her last 15 years of her life.

Diana Elder (12m 58s):
I think she was about 70 when I was born. She died when I was 15, since she was, you know, in her mid eighties. And so I only knew this older woman. I never knew her when she was young, but there is such fun pictures of her when she is young. And my grandmother and I were kindred spirits. We loved a book. She gave me a book every birthday and Christmas, and she was always reading, always learning. And we both love to travel. Yeah, we both love our family. She kept scrapbook, I kept scrapbooks. She had a beautiful garden, loved her roses. I love gardening. So it’s just really fun to connect and think of all the different things that we shared.

Diana Elder (13m 41s):
And I had written a lot about Florence on family locket as a member of the American War mothers during World War ii and her membership as a daughter of Utah pioneers that society. But I had not really written much about her before she got married. And she got married in 1916 at the age of 24. So I decided I would dive in a little bit deeper about some of her early years. So she was born on 12 December, 1892 in Spanish Fork, Utah. And she was the oldest of 11 children. And then she died on 12 November, 1977 in Burley, Idaho. And she was the wife of Edward Raymond, Kelsey, and the mother of six children.

Nicole Elder Dyer (14m 22s):
Alright, well, the photo you picked is so fun because it’s not a professional sitting or anything. It’s like Florence with her friends, right?

Diana Elder (14m 33s):
Yep.

Nicole Elder Dyer (14m 34s):
So if you go to the blog post, you can see the picture, but I’ll describe it to you. Florence may have been born in the 19th century, but the photo shows her with two friends and depicts her as a 20th century woman with some personality. So it’s kind of funny because her face is slightly blurry, so she was either not quite ready for the photo or protesting the arm around her shoulder from the man next to her, it looks like. But she has a fun, fashionable outfit on with white button-up boots, a skirt, a stripe top, and a hat that’s slightly askew, which I think it was meant to be like that. So that’s cute.

Nicole Elder Dyer (15m 14s):
And Florence loved having nice suits, hats, and coats for going out. And we have a lot of pictures of her wearing hats always at an angle. So this is a fun photo, but here are some questions that the photo evokes Who are the man and the woman with Florence? And why was this taken? Was it a special event? The photo is labeled, so the label reads Florence Matilda Career and Friends at L D S Business College. But where did that label come from?

Diana Elder (15m 48s):
Well, as I was putting it in, I just made that label up, so I knew she’d gone to LDS Business College. And so it kind of seemed to me like that was where it would be, but I really didn’t know.

Nicole Elder Dyer (16m 1s):
So when when you got this picture from your mom, you labeled it? Yeah,

Diana Elder (16m 4s):
I digitized all these pictures and put labels on them, and I didn’t really do the research on it, I just thought, oh, that looks like that’s probably what it is.

Nicole Elder Dyer (16m 12s):
Well, it’s better than nothing for a posterity, I guess.

Diana Elder (16m 15s):
Yeah. Yep.

Nicole Elder Dyer (16m 17s):
But that is some insight into the fact that labels may have been put on by somebody who didn’t really know.

Diana Elder (16m 22s):
Oh yeah, that’s That’s exactly right. It goes back to who was the informant, right? Yep.

Nicole Elder Dyer (16m 28s):
This looks like it was during LDS Business College. Well, she did attend LDS Business College during that timeframe, but more research was needed to really determine if this was truly where the picture was taken. And starting with the clothing, we can look and see that Florence’s outfit looks to be the height of fashion. And you can tell that by comparing it with the November, 1916 Good Housekeeping issue, which features a similar traveling outfit and the same laced boots.

Diana Elder (16m 58s):
Oh my goodness. It’s so fun to find these old catalogs that show the latest style. And I love them. I actually really love that outfit. I wish we still had that. I would maybe wear it. That was so fun.

Nicole Elder Dyer (17m 10s):
Yeah. In the blog post, I love that you put a screenshot of this Good Housekeeping magazine. Where did you find that?

Diana Elder (17m 16s):
Well, I did that with my friend Google I, I think I did a search for a 1916 fashion and pulled that up. Actually, the citation that I put on that, it was from Flicker, so I think I did a Google search, but then the the photo was on Flicker. We have just so many resources now online. All right. Let’s do a quick word from our sponsor, newspapers.com. Did your ancestor disappear from vital records? Maybe they moved or got married. Newspapers can help you find them and tell their stories, or have you ever had trouble figuring out how people tie into your family tree? Newspapers are filled with birth notices, marriage announcements, and obituaries.

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Diana Elder (18m 37s):
Alright, well, let’s talk a little bit more about Florence. Towards the end of her life, she wrote her life history, and I am so grateful that my mother made her do that. I don’t think she wanted to, but she did. And I have these great little snippets that give some clues to the photo. I always knew that she had gone to the World’s Fair is what, you know, my mom would always say. And when I looked that up, I found it was actually called the Panama Pacific International Exposition, and it was a World’s Fair. It was held in San Francisco, California from February 20th to December 4th, 1915.

Diana Elder (19m 17s):
And so, because I had the clue that this was a traveling outfit from that Good Housekeeping magazine in 1916, I thought, oh, maybe she’s going on a trip. And she treated herself to this new outfit before taking the train from Salt Lake City to San Francisco. It sounds more like something you would do for a big trip than just going to business college, right? Yeah. So this is what she wrote. While I was a librarian, when I was around 23 or 24 years old, I joined a group of 13 people and went to the World’s Fair in San Francisco. I had saved the money from working at the library. We stayed at hotels also. We went down to San Diego where there was a smaller fair while at San Francisco, we’d sneak away from our chaperones and go to the stage play Birth of a Nation with Lillian Gish, also Chinatown.

Diana Elder (20m 7s):
We stayed two weeks at the fair. We went by train. So I love that little sneak peek into her life. And the part about sneaking away from chaperones when she’s 23 or 24, that’s kind of hilarious that, oh my goodness. But yeah, that was just so fun. And I did find a picture, it’s in the blog post of the Palace of Education at the Panama Pacific International Exposition, and I just really hypothesize that as a teacher and librarian, that she likely visited the Palace of Education, which is so beautiful. It looks very, I don’t know, I almost wanna say Asian in style, like lots of really neat shrubbery and trees around it.

Diana Elder (20m 54s):
So I can just imagine for my grandmother growing up in Utah, this must have been the adventure of a lifetime.

Nicole Elder Dyer (21m 3s):
For sure. I love the picture that you found of the Palace of Education. That’s so neat. It looks like a postcard picture.

Diana Elder (21m 12s):
Yeah, I think it was a postcard, and I wish I had something more that she maybe had sent home or kept, but nothing was saved in her materials from that era. Just her written history.

Nicole Elder Dyer (21m 24s):
Yeah. I wonder if she even brought any of that when she got married and came to Idaho.

Diana Elder (21m 28s):
Maybe not. And you know, if she had sent something home to her parents, that could be with a stack of papers that someone else in the family inherited, or maybe it just got thrown out because I bet you anything she sent postcards home, you know, I think she would’ve done that, but who knows where they ended up.

Nicole Elder Dyer (21m 46s):
Well, could the setting of the photo of Florence and her friends be San Francisco? I think that is pretty good. Then the fact that she is kind of looking a little mischievous in this photo, I like the part that you correlated with about sneaking away from a chaperones. It shows that they had a flare for adventure, right? Yep. Unless those friends in the photo were the chaperones.

Diana Elder (22m 14s):
That’s funny.

Nicole Elder Dyer (22m 17s):
Well, another snippet from Florence’s history about her education can give us a clue about who these friends could have been. She said, I attended schools at Spanish Fork after I had completed my junior year in high school. Uncle John career, who was the county superintendent, asked me to go to Costello, a little town in the mountains above Spanish Fork to teach school. It was a most unpleasant experience as there was real deep snow, and it was difficult for the pupil to attend regularly. Each weekend I would catch the train and go home. After one year, I came back to Spanish Fork and was a librarian in the new high school. I was glad for the job so I could help out at home.

Nicole Elder Dyer (22m 57s):
I ordered all the books for the library. I kept this job for four years, then went to L d s Business College in Salt Lake to learn how to type. I lived at the Hotel Utah with Ellen Anderson. I was offered to raise an a change of jobs if I would learn how to teach typing. I also took training at the Salt Lake Library under Joanna.

Diana Elder (23m 17s):
All right. So I was really interested in Ellen Anderson, who was such a good friend, and knowing that she lived at the Hotel Utah with her. I wondered if maybe she was the other woman in the photo. So I turned to family search to see if I could find Ellen, and I really didn’t think that I, it would be very easy to find her because that seems like a very common name. But I did know about the years that she would be born since she would be the same age as my grandmother. I, I hypothesized. So I did find a likely candidate, and I found that Ellen’s memories had a picture, and then there was an obituary that really gained some insight into her life and made it pretty apparent that this was the Ellen Anderson my grandmother wrote about.

Diana Elder (24m 4s):
So her obituary says, miss Ellen Anderson, 42, who taught school for a number of years in Payson, and most recently in Spanish Fork, died unexpectedly Thursday morning at the home of her sister. She was born July 30th, 1892 at Lake Shore, a daughter of Georgia and Rosetta m Anderson. She graduated from the Spanish Fork High School and the normal department of the byu, she taught in the Nebo School District until 1931. So I correlated that my grandmother was also born in 1892. She attended Spanish Fork schools and was a teacher. And so I was pretty sure that this was the correct Ellen Anderson.

Diana Elder (24m 44s):
Ellen never married, and my grandmother might have been in the same situation, had my grandfather not written her, and asked if she’d moved to his Idaho homestead and marry him. And so they seemed like they were really on the same trajectory. And so studying Florence’s life history, my best hypothesis for the photo is that that was Ellen in the photo, and it was taken during the trip to San Francisco in 1915 with her good friend. I still have no idea who the man is. She didn’t write about any other men, but gave me a clue. So I don’t know, I guess I could always look for records of LDS Business College and everyone who attended, but that seems kind of like a needle and a haystack.

Diana Elder (25m 29s):
So at this point, I’ll just be happy that I, I think I’ve identified the other women. I don’t know, what do you think? I have both pictures. The one from family search and then this snapshot.

Nicole Elder Dyer (25m 39s):
Oh, yeah. It looks like a match. Yeah,

Diana Elder (25m 41s):
I thought it did too. It was really exciting because I’ve seen this picture like my entire life. I’ve loved it forever, but I’d never really researched it. So it was really fun to write the blog post and research it and come to a little bit better idea and to correlate my grandma’s history with the picture.

Nicole Elder Dyer (25m 58s):
Yeah, I think to identify the man, I would probably look at Ellen Anderson’s family members next and see if it was a relative and then, yeah. Yeah, you could look at L D s Business College records, but that might be a needle on a haystack. Yeah,

Diana Elder (26m 12s):
That’s a good idea though, to look at her family. Maybe it’s her brother. It could be something just as simple like that. Great idea.

Nicole Elder Dyer (26m 19s):
I know, I can’t tell how old the man is. He looks like he could be older than them, but it’s hard to tell.

Diana Elder (26m 24s):
I don’t know. Yeah, I can’t tell either

Nicole Elder Dyer (26m 28s):
Because his hat is covering his hair. So if he’s bald or balding, then you would think he’s older, but if he’s not, and I can’t tell if he has glasses on or not. It looks like he might, but then I can’t tell if that’s just a wrinkle.

Diana Elder (26m 41s):
Oh yeah. Yeah. It’s a good photograph, but it’s a little bit blurry in a few places.

Nicole Elder Dyer (26m 46s):
Yeah. I wonder if he was like a teacher or a chaperone or,

Diana Elder (26m 50s):
Well, there is a building in the background, and I tried to do some searching on that, but unfortunately, sometimes those older buildings are just not extant anymore. And if there’s not a historical photograph, that can be more difficult. So I, I didn’t really come up with a lot of hits on trying to find the old buildings at the LDS business College. I’d probably need to go somewhere. Maybe the Utah Archives has got a collection of photos or something that’s not online, and maybe I could Yeah.

Nicole Elder Dyer (27m 19s):
Or you could even just ask like a Utah historic buildings expert to look at it and tell you the answer.

Diana Elder (27m 25s):
Right. If they have some ideas. I also tried looking at the trees to see if the trees gave me any clues, but they look like generic trees.

Nicole Elder Dyer (27m 35s):
Could be in Utah, could be in San Francisco. Yeah.

Diana Elder (27m 38s):
Yeah, exactly. And it could be that they were still in Utah getting ready to get on the train. You know, it could be that she was getting ready to go and had this great outfit and they were saying, okay, we’re gonna get ready, take a picture of us before we leave. So it could have been in Utah and, but it was still, the setting was, they were going up on this trip. Anyway, it was fun.

Nicole Elder Dyer (27m 59s):
I just think it’s funny that both women have their outside hand up on the man’s hand, like they’re trying to get it off or, or they’re patting it or something.

Diana Elder (28m 10s):
Yeah, it is kind of funny. I agree. I agree. Why

Nicole Elder Dyer (28m 13s):
Does this guy have his arms around us?

Diana Elder (28m 15s):
And he looks very dapper in his hat and dressed up in a very fashionable suit.

Nicole Elder Dyer (28m 21s):
Yeah. The hat is very much like a Mary Poppins style from that era.

Diana Elder (28m 26s):
Great picture. So fun.

Nicole Elder Dyer (28m 29s):
Well, thanks for sharing about your process to research this photo and your findings. It’s fun to talk about mystery photos, and it just makes me think of all the fun photos we have in our collection to do the same with and to learn more about some of our closer ancestors and their lives and correlating them with their life history that some of them did. Right. Which is such a treasure.

Diana Elder (28m 53s):
Absolutely. And you never know what you can discover when you start researching a photo. I just really had no idea I could come up with so many different ideas and hypotheses. So really fun to think of that avenue of our research as well.

Nicole Elder Dyer (29m 8s):
So fun. Well, thanks for sharing, and to all our listeners, we’ll talk to you guys again next week. Bye-bye.

Diana Elder (29m 13s):
All right. Bye-bye everyone.

Nicole Elder Dyer (29m 15s):
Thank you for listening. We hope that something you heard today will help you make progress in your research. If you want to learn more, purchase our books, research Like a Pro and Research like a Pro with DNA on amazon.com and other book sellers. You can also register for our online courses or study groups of the same names. Learn more at family lock.com/services. To share your progress and ask questions, join our private Facebook group by sending us your book receipt or joining our courses to get updates in your email inbox each Monday, subscribe to our newsletter@familylock.com slash newsletter. Please subscribe, rate and review our podcast. We read each of you and are so thankful for them. We hope you’ll start now to research like a pro.