RLP 214: Native American DNA with Roberta Estes

Nicole (0s):
This is Research Like a Pro episode 214 Native American DNA with Roberta Estes. Welcome to Research Like a Pro a Genealogy Podcast about taking your research to the next level, hosted by Nicole Dyer and Diana Elder accredited genealogy professional. Diana and Nicole are the mother-daughter team at FamilyLocket.com and the authors of Research Like a Pro A Genealogist Guide. With Robin Wirthlin they also co-authored the companion volume, Research Like a Pro with DNA. Join Diana and Nicole as they discuss how to stay organized, make progress in their research and solve difficult cases.

Nicole (40s):
Let’s go, hi everyone. And welcome to Research Like a Pro.

Diana (46s):
Hi, Nicole, How are you doing today?

Nicole (48s):
I’m okay. I have a little cold, but I’m gonna make it through. How about you? What have you been doing?

Diana (53s):
Well, we just finished up Institute season, So I had done the Institute on advanced DNA, and then I just finished the one for colonial Southern research with Mark Lowe, which was fabulous. I just love these deep dives into a topic. And after doing the Southern colonial Institute course, I am just so excited to get back to all of my research on our family, because they are all from the colonial south, right? So I always pick up new tips and ideas, and we did spend time looking at all the new resources for researching online. You know, these archives are putting more and more of things online, and it’s kind of astounding what you can do, and if you’re not actively researching in that state, you may not realize all the updates.

Diana (1m 43s):
So it’s always good for a refresher bringing me up to date with what’s the latest and greatest with the archives and online research for the south.

Nicole (1m 52s):
Fantastic. All

Diana (1m 54s):
Right. So our announcements for today, we have our next research, Like a pro study group beginning on Wednesday, September 7th. And we will meet every week for nine weeks. We’ll have a break the week of October 19th for extra research time and registration is now open and it will be ending soon. So if you’ve been thinking about joining us, just take the leap and do it. You will not regret it. And if you’re interested in being a peer group leader, the application is on our website and as always join our newsletter to find out what we’re doing and get our coupons.

Nicole (2m 31s):
Well, we’re excited to have Roberta Estes here today. Hi Roberta.

Roberta Estes (2m 35s):
Hi. How are you?

Nicole (2m 37s):
Wonderful. We’re so thankful that you agreed to come on and talk about your new book DNA for Native American Genealogy.

Roberta Estes (2m 44s):
Well, I’m so pleased that you’ve invited me and it’s such a timely topic, especially since you were doing the colonial south, because there’s a lot of Native people there too.

Nicole (2m 53s):
Yeah, that’s true. And I was in that class as well, and we had some discussions about resources for Native Americans that are in, I think it was the Georgia archives, but I think a lot of the archives in the Southern states have good things. Do you remember Diana?

Diana (3m 10s):
Which well, I believe I’m not sure exactly which one we specifically talked about, but I do know that especially North Carolina, because, you know, they had a lot of the Cherokee groups there and the Lumby group is still there. And so I don’t know, I get it confused what I’ve learned in an Institute and what we’ve just worked on in client projects. So

Nicole (3m 29s):
Yeah, I just remembered there were some good resources available and it’s so helpful. Well, let’s talk a little bit about this book DNA for Native American Genealogy. It was published last year in 2021, and it’s available for purchase on Amazon and also from genealogical publishing company at their website. And we are excited to be doing a giveaway with the book. So if you are listening to this podcast, you know, the first week that it comes out, then make sure you go and leave a comment in the blog post that goes along with this at familylocket.com. This is episode 214. So go to that episode and scroll to the bottom and type in your comment and then click submit. And then we’ll do a drawing on August 20th and let you know by email, if you are a winner, if you want to learn more about Roberta and all of the wonderful work she does, you can go to her website, her blog, and it’s at DNA-explained.com.

Nicole (4m 23s):
And she has been writing since 2012 about genetic Genealogy. So if there’s any topic that you want to learn about, you can go search for it at her website, because she has just covered about everything. And when I have a question, I just go straight to her blog and type it in. And usually there’s a detailed article helping with whatever I have a question about. Roberta has been a professional scientist and business owner for 35 plus years. She has a master’s in computer science and MBA and has done graduate work in the geographic information systems. She’s an obsessed, A Genealogist like us. She’s been doing this Genealogy research since 1978, and then in 2005, reflecting her interest in expertise in genetics for Genealogy.

Nicole (5m 6s):
She formed DNA, explain a company, providing genetic research analysis and consulting. Roberta is the national geographic society, geographic project affiliate scientific researcher, and became part of the design team in 2012. And she has authored multiple academic papers and provided content and consultation to the New York times wall street, journal history, channel national geographic magazine, and other organizations and businesses. So she has a lot of experience and we can’t wait to talk with her today.

Diana (5m 37s):
I love hearing all the things that you’ve done. Roberta, can you tell us just, this is kind of on the fly, but what is your favorite thing that you like to do in this world of genetic Genealogy?

Roberta Estes (5m 49s):
Well, you know, that’s a hard question because I love it all, but I think the thing that drives me that makes me get up every morning is knowing that I can make a difference and that the research that I’m doing, and I don’t necessarily mean personal research. Although I love that too. I write my 52 ancestor article faithfully every week, but I mean, the research that I’m doing, like through the geographic project, through the million MI project, the paper that was just released on the brand new Helo group L seven, that we discovered out of Africa. So I think those things, the fact that we can actually change the world for the better by providing us with the research that helps us learn and understand that we are all connected and how that’s a thing that makes me get up every

Diana (6m 39s):
Morning. I love that. And I think it’s so fun to be talking with you because most of us are just out here using your work. You know, we’re out here benefiting from everything that you and your team and all the people that you work with have discovered and are continuing to discover. So Thank you, Thank you for all your contributions and that you continue to discover. I love that this isn’t done that there’s so much more to do.

Roberta Estes (7m 3s):
Oh my gosh. Every day when I think like, oh, we, you know, made such a big advance and then five years later, I look back and I realize that was like the bottom rung on the ladder, you know, and we’re just climbing the ladder and we don’t know where the top is. And it’s just so amazing. The things that we can do every day that, you know, it’s like, they’re little tiny steps to us. And here’s how I equate this like pennies. You know, it’s like minutes are pennies and it’s like, you see a penny on the sidewalk and people throw them away. Well, I pick them all up because pennies make dollars and dollars make more. And at the end of your life, all the minutes of your life are the pennies. And you might think, you know, well, this isn’t important or that isn’t important, or that’s just a little thing.

Roberta Estes (7m 47s):
But in the end, all of those minutes and pennies are your legacy and that’s what you have done for other people to leave behind. So that’s kind of how I view the science part of this and the research and the research I do on my own family. And on the Native people is part of that because every little bit that I learn and that other people learn all kind of goes in the collective pot and helps us all out the other end. That’s why I share everything.

Diana (8m 15s):
That is our philosophy too. We are all arising the tide, just trying to just make the whole Genealogy world better. And so that’s, that’s an awesome philosophy.

Roberta Estes (8m 24s):
Yeah. A rising tide lifts us off.

Diana (8m 26s):
There you go. There you go. Yeah. So let’s get to talking about Native American ancestry, and I’d like to start off with discussing some of the common myths associated with someone trying to prove their Native American ancestry with DNA.

Roberta Estes (8m 43s):
Well, there are a few that’s for sure. I always said if I had a, a nickel for every time I answered one of these questions, I’d be a millionaire, but there’s a lot of myths out there. One is that if you can prove, and the word prove I’m gonna put that like in air quotes for right now, because we’ll talk about that in a minute that you get free college, that you can join a tribe and that DNA testing will reveal your tribe. And those three are not necessarily true. They’re also not always fault either because it’s kind of that universal. It depends. So you cannot automatically get free college. You cannot automatically join a tribe.

Roberta Estes (9m 25s):
And DNA testing probably will not reveal your tribe. DNA testing will give you pieces of information that may help you find your historic tribe, that every tribe is different and they are sovereign nations in the us. And they get to make their own rules about who can join and under what circumstances. So even if you can prove your historic tribe, that doesn’t mean you can join a tribe. And it doesn’t mean you can get any benefits from the government or the tribe.

Diana (9m 56s):
I really appreciated this part in the book where you go through that because I’ve had a lot of people contact me and want to, to research their families and try to find their tribal connections so that, you know, I suspect they don’t really tell me that, that they can get the free college. And as you know, that’s just, it’s just so difficult. These myths that have come down through the family, which may or may not be true, that there’s the Cherokee ancestor, or it’s usually Cherokee is the one that I hear the very most or just some kind of Native American ancestry. So it is, it’s a real thing out there. So I really appreciated that chapter where you discuss these myths and you know, how you really talk about how it’s much more complicated than what someone might think

Roberta Estes (10m 44s):
It is. And in my own family, I had the same myth. That’s where I started with Native American research. All those many, many years ago was to prove that. And I was just sure that it was true because my grandfather had letters where he wrote, I was in his handwriting about it, and it was supposed to be his grandmother. I’m like, well, he would know, right. Well, he was

Diana (11m 4s):
Wrong. We had the myth too. My great-grandmother was supposed to be full-blooded Cherokee turns out she just married a man. Her second husband was a quarter CTA and they, they lived in Indian territory. So, you know, these myths have a little tiny bit of truth somewhere, but doesn’t always come down correctly through the family.

Roberta Estes (11m 23s):
I have almost exactly that same circumstance because her son went to live in Oklahoma on caw land. So, so there’s a connection. It’s just not the connection that was reported down through the family.

Diana (11m 38s):
Right.

Nicole (11m 40s):
Wow. That’s funny that those two stories are so similar.

Roberta Estes (11m 43s):
I know it is. Let’s

Nicole (11m 44s):
Talk more about tribes. So tell us, you know, what is a tribe?

Roberta Estes (11m 48s):
Well, that’s a really good question. Tribes are different in different countries. So let, let’s start there south of the United States. So in Mexico and in south America, they don’t have tribes the way we do here. They’re more culturally based cultural institutions, social institutions, but there, isn’t a thing like a tribe where you join And there there’s a role of members. That’s not how it is there in the United States. A tribe is a legal entity. A federal tribe is, and federal tribes are recognized by the government and they have a treaty status with the government, meaning that the government has had treaties with that tribe.

Roberta Estes (12m 29s):
And there are other qualifications, like there are remaining people and they still either live on the tribal land or they have a cultural association or they’re recognized as tribal members, or there’s a blood quantum depending upon the tribe. So in the United States, federally recognized tribes have very specific relationship with the federal government. There are also state tribes. So tribes that the federal government does not recognize, but that the state might, and those have different rules for being recognized depending on the state that they’re in. And then there are the quote, other tribes and air quotes again, where people have formed a tribe and they can call it a tribe, cuz you can call something, anything you want based on whatever criteria they want.

Roberta Estes (13m 22s):
And some of those are predatory, so you can pay money to join them, but they’re not a tribe by any recognized entity. So it’s different. And then in Canada, the government also recognizes some tribes and then there are the Métis which are mixed people in Canada and they’re recognized differently and there’s different qualifications for proof in Canada. So the concept of a tribe differs depending on where you are.

Nicole (13m 56s):
Thank you. That was a helpful definition. And I was going to ask about Canada too. So thanks for mentioning that. But there are a lot of researchers that we’ve come into contact with our study group who have been researching more about their Native ancestry in Canada. So it’s more common than I realized

Roberta Estes (14m 16s):
It is. And as a rule, the further west you are the easier the proof is because colonization happened from the east to the west with an exception of kind of like the Pacific, you know, borderland there. So, you know, on the east coast, it’s difficult because colonization and integration happened very early on in the 16 hundreds, some in the 15 hundreds, depending on where it was in terms of the fishing villages, but then as it moved westward it’s later. So the tribes were still intact in like Saskatchewan and Montana and those places and still are intact in many cases today, the same tribe.

Roberta Estes (14m 58s):
So it’s a little easier the further west you get, generally speaking,

Diana (15m 3s):
That makes sense. Just not as much inner marriage and especially with the DNA, that’s going to make a difference

Roberta Estes (15m 11s):
In big difference.

Diana (15m 12s):
Yeah. Well let’s talk for a minute before we get into the DNA about traditional genealogical research, because I know that plays a part. I mean, I don’t think any of any of the tribes are just using DNA or they are even using DNA at all. So what role does that play? Just what we usually do with Genealogy?

Roberta Estes (15m 33s):
Well, the first thing I tell people who are looking for their, their Native Ancestors is talk to your family, obviously because they may not be right, but they may not be wrong. They may be able to point you in the right direction if nothing else. And then the first thing I tell people to do, especially in the United States is the census because there’s multiple censuses. There’s the traditional census that we have every decade. And that will note people as mixed or Indian. I for Indian and mixed race can sometimes me lotto with the M and that could signify mixed European heritage with African, but it can also signify mixed with Native.

Roberta Estes (16m 17s):
So it just means that generally they asked people or looked at them and decided they were mixed something, not European, but there’s also special Indian census that was taken. And those censuses are available as well. And if your Ancestors on an Indian census, that means they were with a tribe. And so those are very helpful. And if you’re lucky enough to find that that’s very important. So the, the next thing is, if you have an idea like the, you know, the Cherokee, everybody’s got a Cherokee ancestor, right? If you’re east of the Mississippi, well, first of all, look at where they were. If they’re in Maine, they’re not Cherokee, you know, the Cherokee weren’t in Maine, the Cherokee were also not in Virginia.

Roberta Estes (17m 2s):
The Cherokee were North Carolina and Georgia, maybe a little bit in Tennessee. So those areas, they might be Cherokee. They might also be something else. So the next thing I would suggest is looking at the tribal roles and the tribal roles were constructed generally by the government sometimes by the tribe, depending on the purpose. And generally it had to do with payment. The government wanted to know who were members of the tribe because after they took their lands in the early, they took the lands generally in the 1830s, but in the late 1800s, early 1900s, they wound up doing some compensation and they needed to know who to compensate. So they needed to know who was removed, who were those people and what were the relationships of the people around 1900 to the original people who were tribal members?

Roberta Estes (17m 52s):
So there are a number of tribal roles, not just for the Cherokee, but also for other tribes in other places that will list tribal members based on early 1900s, late 1800s. And so you can check there to see if you can find a family member there, there are also other Native resources sometimes for areas where your family was found. And I’m gonna give you one in a minute, but I also wanna direct you to my other blog. It’s the Native heritage project.com. And what I’ve done over the years is when I found Native people with European names, documented someplace and some obscure record, I wrote about it and documented it there.

Roberta Estes (18m 33s):
So you may find something there, but I’m gonna give you another really good resource. And that’s the Virginia archive. They have an index of the people that were in the Chancery records. And if you just Google Virginia archives chance re records index, you will find that. So you can see if you can find your relatives there, but you can also search on keyword. And the keyword is end in. So people sometimes claimed their freedom based on the fact that the female was Native American. So you can look in the Chancery records to see if your ancestor was potentially enslaved because the Indians were also sold into slavery, just like black people were.

Roberta Estes (19m 18s):
Those are ways of looking for your ancestor and the traditional and some nontraditional records as well.

Diana (19m 26s):
Wow. Thanks for that great overview. And for that tip on searching the Chancery records and the Virginia memory, the library of Virginia website. That’s great. I think there’s just points to the fact that there are so many things out there. There’s, there’s a lot more than I think people would think of. I know a lot just goes straight to the DAS roles. You know, the government roles where people are trying to prove their ancestry so they could get the land when Oklahoma became a state, but there’s also the guy in Miller roles. And then I love what you said about the Native resources for the area. So, you know, you’ve gotta go to your locality and really learn about what is there.

Diana (20m 9s):
So I think it’s just a Testament to what we always teach that you have to do the research as well as use the DNA. You can’t just use one without the other. Well, you can use the traditional research without the DNA, right? But I think that the DNA testing for Native American ancestry is fascinating. And so I’m excited to hear more about that. That’s what we get into that.

Roberta Estes (20m 32s):
I have another tip too, and it ties these two together because there are declined records. So people were trying to prove that they had a Native ancestor back in, I, I wanna say 1907 and I wish I could see the book on my bookshelf, but I, I can’t write now. So I can’t tell you the name, there’s a series. And they were declined record applications for the five civilized tribes. And I was going through for a while and I was actually creating an index document for myself because people were claiming they were Native. And then there was a court within the tribe and they would say, no, there’s not enough proof of this, but guess what? We’ve proven.

Roberta Estes (21m 12s):
Some of them actually were Native using DNA on their descendants. So even if you don’t find on the, on the actual role, because you had to be approved to be on the dogs or the G Miller role, you can look in the declined applications and you may find your ancestor there. And then you may be able to test the appropriate descendants for wire mitochondrial DNA and actually prove that they were so that’s another resource and you can tie those two together.

Diana (21m 43s):
Oh my goodness. I think that is so interesting. Cuz I have seen plenty of those declined applications. Very Interesting.

Roberta Estes (21m 51s):
And those declined applications give all kinds of family information. They give their children, they tell who was left behind. I mean, there’s so much, there’s more information in the declined applications than there is in the improved ones. Mostly

Diana (22m 5s):
I have seen those. It’s like, they’re bringing everybody in that they can to testify about them as well. So you, you kind of build their whole, you know, their whole group, their whole fan club. That’s fun. Thanks for bringing that up.

Nicole (22m 19s):
Roberta, a question for you with the Native heritage project. If you know, like I run across something, could I submit it to you to share? Or would you recommend something else?

Roberta Estes (22m 29s):
No, you can. I haven’t published recently on there because WordPress actually changed their formatting and I need to do some work on that blog first, but yes, you can send it to me. And I also am compiling that kind of information in a big database. So yeah. And that is not online. I was publishing a lot of it on the Native heritage project, but that might someday, maybe turn into another kind of resource for people. And my focus is primarily on east of the Mississippi, but not excluding Oklahoma and Texas, you know? So it, the early places where the information is going to be scarce, yes, I guess is what I’m saying.

Roberta Estes (23m 15s):
And the tribes that were removed and where they were removed to, which of course includes Oklahoma and Texas. So that’s where my focus is with that because the other tribes are easier to deal with because they were intact longer.

Nicole (23m 30s):
That makes sense. They’re kind of those east of the Mississippi tribes were just so long ago too. And so the records back then are even more scarce.

Roberta Estes (23m 39s):
Right? And they were devastated. The original tribes were removed or destroyed. So today we’re dealing with just shreds of evidence.

Nicole (23m 48s):
Well, I could spend all day reading this Native heritage project. I just scrolled down and found some interesting things about a Presbyterian Mohegan. And it’s just really cool

Roberta Estes (23m 59s):
Lot. There there’s a lot there.

Nicole (24m 2s):
Well, let’s go on to talking about DNA testing. So how can you know, we’ve hinted at it a little bit and you’ve mentioned it, but let’s really lay it out. How can DNA testing help us prove Native ancestry?

Roberta Estes (24m 16s):
Well, there’s three ways. The, let me start with the most common thing because people, they see an ad for one of the autosomal, you know, ancestry 23 and me family tree DNA are my heritage. And it’s like, well, who am I? You can find out, get your ethnicity report. So they take the autosomal test with the expectation or the hope that they’re gonna click one day. And they’re gonna say, it’s gonna say, yeah, here’s your, your, this much Native American and it’s this person. Well, it’s not gonna tell you which person. And it may or may not tell you you’re Native American, that you’re any portion Native American, depending on how far back in time. And if you just happen to inherit the correct DNA, the Native DNA and the company’s algorithm can pick it up.

Roberta Estes (25m 3s):
So the first thing that I suggest that you do, if that’s you and you’ve tested with that hope and you found it with the first one, that’s great, but I wouldn’t stop there because both 23 and me and family tree DNA, in addition to just giving you a percentage, they tell you where on your chromosomes, that Native segment is, and they give you stop and start positions. So you can then compare with other people that you match, especially if you know which side of your family it’s on and you can track the Native ancestor back in time that way. So that’s the first way you may discover that you don’t carry Native American heritage on your DNA, but your sibling might your aunt or uncles, one generation back in time, are your parents or your grandparents or your great aunts and uncles or their children.

Roberta Estes (25m 54s):
So I start testing other people in the family as well, as many as I can, because if, if I have a Native segment and they have that same Native segment that also tells me which line it came from, I can narrow the line by that pretty easily. So that’s very interesting. That’s a way to do that as well. So that in your autosomal DNA, which is where most people start, that’s one way to find out if you do have some Native heritage now, just because you don’t have it in your DNA, doesn’t mean you don’t have an Native ancestor. It just means that it’s not showing up in the DNA with the testing company’s algorithm that they have today.

Roberta Estes (26m 37s):
Now mine comes and goes because I’m far enough back in time that it doesn’t always show up. So like right now it’s showing at family tree DNA and at 23 and me, but not at ancestry. So I know where it is on my segments though. So I’m good to go because I can now tell which of my cousins and which ancestral line tracking back in time by tracking those segments it came from. And then in my case, the proof and I, and I want you to hear that word proof because proof is so evasive with autosomal DNA, especially back far in time, was by why and mitochondrial DNA testing the people today that represent those Ancestors appropriately.

Roberta Estes (27m 21s):
So with why DNA, obviously it, Y tracks through the paternal line, through the Y chromosome that only males inherit from their father. So on the Y line, I went across my family tree and I collected do not laugh. The Y DNA haplo groups of my Ancestors based on the projects that family tree DNA and the people that I found through autosomal testing that descended in the appropriate way. So if I was looking for the, the little blank line or the Doucette line, which is actually one of my Native lines out of the Acadian families, then I’m like, okay, this is my ancestor.

Roberta Estes (28m 4s):
And three of his male descendants have tested and they’re Native. So that proves that that male Duce was Native American. Yeah. See, so if you collect your haplo groups, as you go further back in your tree, and I call that your DNA Pedigree Chart, it’s really your, why am mitochondrial DNA Pedigree Chart, then you can prove or disprove that. That’s how I disproved using mitochondrial DNA, that my great, great grandmother who’s supposed to be, you know, Cherokee princess, that she was not on her mother’s side. So remember when you’re testing mitochondrial DNA, that’s the mother’s mother’s line.

Roberta Estes (28m 45s):
So that person could have been on her father’s line. So that’s why then you need to go and find someone to represent the Y DNA of the father. So, so that’s what I do. And I collect those and I use the projects at family tree DNA. I use my matches everywhere when I find someone who descends appropriately and at my heritage and at ancestry with their through lines. And my heritage is theories of family relativity. They tell you how you’re connected. You match these people, autosomal DNA, but they also show you the path of descent. And if you’re matched descends from that ancestor through all females, whether they’re male or female in the current generation, they carry her mitochondrial DNA.

Roberta Estes (29m 28s):
And if the match is, is a wide DNA match to that line, you know, whether it’s, you know, Estes or, or whoever it is, I I’m a female, but I found Estes males to test to represent that line. Of course, that was easier, cuz it’s closer in time, but I’ve done that with all of the lines that I can reaching far back in time. And that’s actually how I proved my Native Ancestors on my mother’s side. But here’s the catch. I didn’t know. I had Native Ancestors on my mother’s side. I didn’t know that wasn’t in the oral history, the oral history’s on my father’s side. So I have it on both sides because I have autosomal segments on both sides that are Native and I’ve managed to prove it on my mother’s side to two specific Ancestors, but on my father’s side using autosomal DNA, I know which line it came out of.

Roberta Estes (30m 25s):
I think it came out my enslaved line because it’s right up against my African segment, but I haven’t been able to prove it yet using Y mitochondrial DNA. So I know who it’s not, I just don’t know who it is. Huh? Yeah. That’s I know it’s so fascinating. It’s like a puzzle, you know, like you put together the outside pieces of that jigsaw puzzle, you know, the border and now you’re like, okay, well I kind of got these brackets now I gotta fill in all this inside part.

Nicole (30m 52s):
Wow. That is such a, a good plan for how to figure it out. And I just am super jealous that you’ve done so much. Why in mitochondrial testing for your Pedigree?

Roberta Estes (31m 2s):
Well, I literally put my Pedigree Chart up. I have a visual on PowerPoint and I have it in, in several of my presentations and I think I put it in the book too. And I, I basically have a, a fan Chart or a Pedigree Chart. Like we, you know, with, we all see where the, you know, your parents are above you and your four grandparents and your eight great grandparents. And I literally fill that in. And So I know who I’m missing. I can look at it and see who I’m missing very easily by looking at a fan Chart view on my own software. I have their happier group is their middle name. Don’t laugh.

Diana (31m 36s):
I love that. Okay. So I have a question for you as you were talking, I, I love this whole idea. I’m totally gonna do this, right, Nicole, we’re gonna do this. This is gonna be awesome. But I think we should, one of my questions was, can you, do you ever just use the haplo group that 23 and me suggests, or do you have everybody tests at family trade DNA?

Roberta Estes (31m 58s):
Yes. And yes. So

Nicole (32m 1s):
Whatever we can get, right?

Roberta Estes (32m 3s):
Yeah. So that’s a great starting point 23and me, I love that they do that because they give you a piece. It’s not your full hap group. It’s far up the tree, but it can serve as a sometimes confirmation. So you can look at that and you can say, okay, it’s hap group J or H. So I know that’s not the Native one, but you still need that for your family because that will help you break down the brick wall. Everybody hits a brick wall and we do more often with women than men because we lose their Sur. Right. So when I find someone that represents my, a apple group of my ancestor, whether they’re Native or not, first of all, I ask if they’ve tested family tree DNA, they may already have done that.

Roberta Estes (32m 50s):
If so, that’s great. And if they haven’t tested at the full sequence level or at the big Y I offer scholarship, and yes, I offer a lot of scholarships, but think of it this way, I would spend that much on a book, in a heartbeat. Right. If there was a book that someone said, yeah, you can prove by buying that book, that your Ancestors Native or not, we would have that ordered and delivery tomorrow. We’d pay expedited delivery for that. Right? Yeah. Cause we’re crazy A Genealogist. So I offer scholarships. The other thing I do just before they open roots tech, the last two years, they’ve had that find your relatives at roots tech, and you can see who you’re connected to of the other people.

Roberta Estes (33m 33s):
Who’ve registered for roots tech. So, you know, they’re A Genealogist, right? Or they wouldn’t be registered for roots tech. And a lot of more, a lot more people registered the last couple years because it was virtual. So normally there’s 40, 45,000, the last couple years, it was way more than that. And it’s only available from family search right around the roots tech time. So you can’t use it from this pasts tech, but you need to be ready for the next roots tech. I do this again again, because I found a lot of cousins that I didn’t know, and they may or may not have autosomal DNA tested. You can message them and ask. But what I did for why and Mirial DNA lines that I didn’t have people to represent, I contacted and asked if would be interested in testing scholarship.

Roberta Estes (34m 22s):
And a few of them didn’t reply, but I got three lines that I mitochondrial lines that I had never had before that I get to add. And, and the reason that I test them at family tree and the reason I offer people from three and scholarships to test there is because you get your full haplo group. It’s not just an abbreviated haplo group. So you can tell, you know, for Native Americans, not just that they are, but you can tell much more. You can look at who they match. You can look at the areas. So for one of the people I was working with, they were haplo group B, a subset of haplo group B and all of their close matches were in them in a specific Pueblo in New Mexico.

Roberta Estes (35m 11s):
So, I mean, did it tell me which tribe? No, but now they know who could contact and they can ask their contacts, which tribe. So it’s very interesting. And I found not just for my Native American lines, because you don’t know if they’re Native American or not until you test, right. I mean, you, if you know, they’re in England, they’re not Native American, but if they’re here in colonial America, until you can test every one of those lines, you don’t know for sure whether they are or aren’t and I’ve found some real surprises. And in, in both ways, ones that I just sure were aren’t and ones I had no idea were Native are.

Roberta Estes (35m 52s):
So that’s why I used the relatives, that roots tech function. And then I also look at all the different testing companies and how I descend from people that I’m related to. And if it’s through all females from that ancestor, even if I don’t know that ancestor’s name, they can take a mitochondrial DNA test to represent that ancestor, whether they’re male or female in the current generation, cause women pass it on to both of their, both sexes of their children, but only women pass it on. So your husband has his mothers, but your children have yours. So I use all those kind of tools to serve me in terms of finding that information.

Roberta Estes (36m 37s):
And of course, then I share it with my, the person that took the test completely. And So I not only tell them, this is what I found for mitochondrial DNA and also why I’ll build back trees. I’ll, I’ll see if I can find common relatives between those matches because sometimes the answer’s right there for you. I mean, sometimes it’s, it’s great. You do a DNA test yourself or for somebody else. And the answer you’re seeking is just sitting right there, waiting for you to pick up that gold nugget. Sometimes it’s a diamond in the rough and what, you know, it’s like, okay, well it’s not this and it’s not this. And it might be this. And now I have to put these trees together to see if I can find the commonality.

Roberta Estes (37m 20s):
And one of the great tools that I use for that is genetic affairs because their auto tree function looks for not just your matches, but your matches that have uploaded trees. It shows you common trees, not just between you and them, but between each other. So that can be a huge, huge piece of information. And also at family tree DNA, you can look to see who you match autosomal that also matches you or that person that you tested on their mitochondrial or Y DNA. So you can, if you match on both, that’s also a really big hint. So there’s some really good tools to use in why mitochondrial DNA arena that I, I use whenever I can find somebody who descends appropriately and I offer scholarships and, you know, we’d, we’d spend that money in a heartbeat.

Roberta Estes (38m 15s):
If it, we thought it was in a book or in records, in an archive. And what better record than the DNA that your ancestor gave your cousin? I mean, it doesn’t get any better than that.

Nicole (38m 25s):
Agreed. And you’ve inspired me to do that at relatives at roots tech and just reach out to people and see what we can get. I love that

Roberta Estes (38m 33s):
I got three of them at relatives at roots tech. It was like, I hit the jackpot and these are far back in time, cuz I’ve pretty successfully collected the ones that are more recent in time. And two of these have Native myths, you know, they’re myth until I can prove it. Then it’s oral history. You know,

Diana (38m 53s):
That’s such a fun methodology. I love that. Well, we have talked all about autosomal and mitochondrial and Y DNA. Let’s take just a minute to talk a little bit deeper about each one of those. And the book goes into so much depth on this. So we don’t really need to, you know, cover everything in the book, but just maybe two or three points about let’s start with why DNA and just two or three things that you know, our listeners can have as Takeaways about what, why a DNA can tell us about Native ancestry.

Roberta Estes (39m 28s):
Well, why DNA is really interesting. Of course, all DNA’s interesting to me, but the why DNA Native American people have two primary haplo groups, C and Q, but not all subgroups of C and Q. So for example, we find haplo group Q in Finland, the called the forest fins and also in Scandinavia. So you need to not only have the base haplo group, which is sometimes what you find at 23 and me, but you need the very specifics of the, the haplo group. So I spend many for all the people that I test for the big Y because if you think about the Y DNA as a tree, it’s like, okay, Q and C are like the trunk of the tree.

Roberta Estes (40m 15s):
And then you get some really big branches and that’s your next level down. But what you really want is you want those leaves, you’re gathering up those leaves off the ground and you wanna stick those leaves back on the, where they go together. So what you can do the big, why it gives you the most granular happier group, but it also puts you on the tree between all the other men that you match. And so what I do when I have a Native ancestor there that there’s other people, I can look at their tribes, I can look at their location. And one of them I worked with recently, we narrowed it down to within a 50 year period in South Carolina, based on the big why and the people he matched and he doesn’t have that Ancestors name.

Roberta Estes (41m 7s):
And now we have a surname. We have a 50 year period and we have a geography when you don’t have anything, it doesn’t get any better for that.

Diana (41m 15s):
That’s amazing.

Roberta Estes (41m 16s):
So, yeah, so, and we can do that for both YM, mitochondrial DNA. Mitochondrial is harder to work with because of the surname changes every generation, but let’s flip that around. It also has more potential, right? Because we’re stuck more often. And I, I have worked those, not just with Native people, but I’ve worked those many times working trees back and finding the commonality. And even if I can’t find an exact person, I can often find a location. And the same with Native sometimes, you know, Native people didn’t have names us or names early, and they didn’t have European names early. So you’re not gonna find them in the records.

Roberta Estes (41m 58s):
The best you may ever be able to do is to track them back to a place in time. But the place and time allows you to understand their history. What happened in that place and time to the Native people. What was the tribe undergoing? Where did the tribe go? Where might you find tribal members today or descendants of tribal members today? So there’s so much that you can discover based on that testing, that isn’t even an exact surname, cuz you may never have that with Native American Ancestors.

Diana (42m 30s):
That’s really good to know. I think we sometimes get in our head that we wanna have a name to put on our Pedigree Chart for every single line. And we just have to accept that sometimes we won’t, but I love the idea that we can put them in a place and a time and we can have the context, the history, we can know what was happening that caused them to be part of our family tree. So great concept there.

Roberta Estes (42m 55s):
I have Ancestors in my, my own personal software. I don’t do this on ancestry or my heritage or public databases, but I have Ancestors here that the very last person in the line is just their half a group name because that’s all I have for them. You know, I’m back that far. That’s all I have left, but I also, every time I get a new match because it’s evergreen right with, you know, why am I a country DNA? There’s new matches all the time. So every time I get a notification of a new match, I go in there and look because I don’t know, that might be the one that has, you know, that next generation that has something for me that wasn’t there before.

Roberta Estes (43m 37s):
So that’s how I found my Phoebe coal line. Now she’s not Native, but that’s exactly how I found that is I just, it wasn’t there. And then it was there and then I was able to connect the dots. And then I found the records that went with the dots I connected in a place I never expected. She in Virginia and her family was outta New Jersey. Like how the heck did that happen? But I found them, I found the records, but I would never have looked there until somebody else tested and had that missing link.

Diana (44m 6s):
Wow. That’s great.

Roberta Estes (44m 7s):
Yeah. So we need to follow those even though they may not have the surname that we’re looking for.

Diana (44m 13s):
Yeah. And in your book you do give the haplogroup information for all the Y DNA and the mitochondrial DNA, Native haplo groups. And so that’s, I think one of the really helpful things, having that all corralled in one place, you know, so that you can, you can just find it there and do your comparison

Roberta Estes (44m 32s):
In the book. I also connected them with known tribes and I did that on purpose because some of them, like some of the haplo group D is much more prevalent on the west coast and on the Pacific coastline tribal group. And it’s relatively rare on the east coast. So I associated the haplo groups as best I could with the tribes based on people known tribal members and also ancient DNA. I included that in the book as well, because that tells us where our Ancestors were before we find them. And that’s their history too two. Oh yeah. That’s, that’s incredibly important history.

Diana (45m 14s):
Yeah. Everybody wants to know where, where we came from originally and with the Native populations. I think that’s even more fascinating.

Nicole (45m 23s):
Okay. Question about mitochondrial DNA first, are there different types of projects since they’re not certain projects? And then also what level of testing do you recommend at mitochondrial testing?

Roberta Estes (45m 35s):
Well, those are both great questions. Let me take the second one first because it’s the easiest today. You can only purchase a full mitochondrial sequence. So yes, I absolutely recommend that. But historically you could have purchased just the HBR one or HBR two, which the hyper burial variable regions, which are just small portions. And if that’s what you purchased, I recommend that you upgrade because those give you some information, but not the amount of information and not the level of matching that you really need for Genealogy. So that was the easy one. The second one’s the projects. And that’s, that’s a great question because it’s not like you can join a surname project because a surname changes in every generation.

Roberta Estes (46m 18s):
So I actually have joined some, but those are typically focused on the Y DNA and mitochondrial doesn’t show unless the project manager sets it. So that mitochondrial DNA has its own page in the project. So in the projects that I administer and I administer several of the haplo group projects for Native America and like haplo group a and B and C. And then of course there’s DNX you’ll wanna for mitochondrial you’ll wanna join those. Then you’ll also wanna join others that might be relevant for you. For example, the American Indian project, please join that. I administer that as a volunteer as well, but also things like Y D would be haplo groups.

Roberta Estes (47m 6s):
CNQ there are others like there’s the Acadian Mr. Indian project for both Y and mitochondrial and autosomal. We accept all three for that. There are tribal projects, there’s the Cherokee, which does require you to have a known descendant. So we have those, there is the Acadian, I think, mothers of Acadia project. And, but that’s not just for Native. It is focused on mitochondrial DNA And there are a few others as well. I know the Mayflower project, which doesn’t have Native, but they have a mitochondrial section as well. So a number of the projects do and a number of the haplo group projects. There’s mitochondrial, not just for Native, but for Jay and for all, for many of the others.

Roberta Estes (47m 51s):
So joining the appropriate project will be very helpful, not only to find people with common ancestor, but to find other people who have that interest and perhaps information that would be useful for your research. So I really, I strongly encourage that as well.

Nicole (48m 7s):
Yeah. So that seems like a very good avenue for collaboration.

Roberta Estes (48m 11s):
It is. They’re very good. And the same for Y DNA, you know, you asked specifically about mitochondrial that like in the Campbell project right now, which is not Native, but we have a focus on testing everybody on the big Y who matches us on the STR markers, because we need to know we’re lost in this Campbell line and we need to know where we fit and the big why puts the leaves on the trees and helps us figure out where we all fit together or don’t. So what we’re doing, it’s a volunteer. We have our own little Facebook group and we all pitch in money. It’s like, we need this guy to test somebody, ask him if we can pay for that.

Diana (48m 51s):
That’s a great idea. Well, and I think you kind of hinted at something there that mitochondrial and Y DNA really are best used when you’re comparing with other people. You, I think you mentioned fishing, you know, if you just are tested or have someone test and you throw it out there, you may not get any relevant matches, but if you can find a hypothesized ancestor, tracing down, get someone to test that you think should match. You know, that’s really valuable that could apply to Native American, couldn’t it,

Roberta Estes (49m 20s):
It surely could, you know, I had one situation where they thought that two women were sisters and when we got their mitochondrial DNA, one came back to be a Native American and one came back not to be. So either there is a disconnect in the Genealogy or one of the children was taken to raise by the family and they were sisters, meaning they were raised together. So what we needed in that case was a third female child to test. And unfortunately they did not have that

Diana (49m 56s):
In the family in interesting. Oh, okay. So many possibilities. Well, let’s talk about tools and I know you love DNA painter, and I think you have used DNA painter just brilliantly. So kind of lead us how you do that with the autosomal DNA segments.

Roberta Estes (50m 16s):
This is actually, I love DNA painter as a tool. I mean like full stop, but it’s also wonderful when you have Native American segments. And so I do so I’m fortunate, but let’s say that you don’t, but your aunt does. And it’s your, it’s your same line. It’s your same ancestor. She just got a, a different piece of their DNA. So create a profile for her on DNA painter. So I I’m gonna use mine as an example because I do have those Native segments. So I have Native segments on three different chromosomes. They’re relatively small, but they’re there. So what happens is at 23 and me and at family tree DNA, both of those companies not only show you where your segments are, that are from different ethnicities or different populations, they give you the stop and start, and you can download that information in a file, just like any other segment download file, except where your Native Americans are.

Roberta Estes (51m 19s):
It’ll say, you know, whatever that is, whether it’s, you know, Arctic or whatever that group is at that vendor. So you can upload that information to DNA painter. If you know which side of your family it’s from, then you can assign those segments to that family side. So let’s say I’m working with my Native American segment on my mother’s side on chromosome one now, because I paint all my known matches from my heritage from family, true DNA from 23. And me and from Jed match the ones who tested an ancestry, cuz the ones at the other vendors I’ve already got painted, right?

Roberta Estes (52m 2s):
I don’t need those from Jed match, but the people that transferred from ancestry because ancestry doesn’t provide segment information. I can paint those through Jed match at DNA painter. And now on DNA painter, I can go in and say, here’s the Native segment on chromosome one. It goes from this start address to this stop address on my mother’s side. And here are all the people that I know that match me through my mother on that segment on that side. And so every one of those descends from that same Native ancestor. So who’s the Native ancestor and DNA painter allows you when you paint and you found a common ancestor to assign a color to that ancestor.

Roberta Estes (52m 54s):
So in one of my lines, let’s just say, I only have it back to Benjamin Laura and his wife. Well, Benjamin Laura’s Acadian it’s and his wife was English, right? So for this person, I don’t know any further back, but the next person that matches me on that segment, I know it came from Antoine, Laura and his wife, which is another generation back. And the next person let’s say, I know it came from another generation back, cuz I found that in our common trees. So eventually I, I can track it back in time. And then if I have the Y DNA, let’s say I can’t track it back all the way, but I have the Y DNA of people further back.

Roberta Estes (53m 35s):
I can look at that. So I can use the combination of the autosomal segment information, who I match on that segment on that parent side at DNA painter, where I compile everything. And then I can use YM, mitochondrial DNA to test those couples because you, you know that it descends from a couple, you don’t, unless you’re only a half sibling, you don’t know it descends from the mother or father of the couple. I can use YM mitochondrial DNA on those couples marching back in time to verify or to eliminate which people aren’t were Native.

Diana (54m 14s):
Fascinating because I had never thought about painting the ethnicity of the segments, you know, the DNA painter. And I think that’s so brilliant.

Roberta Estes (54m 21s):
It’s a huge benefit, especially when you’re hunting for minority segments by minority, I mean minority to you. So for me, the majority of my segments are European origin, but I have some Native and I have one African American. So those for me, they’re just hugely beneficial because they help me identify which ancestral couples and then marching back in time, which ancestor. And then I can focus why in mitochondrial DNA on those, on those people.

Diana (54m 55s):
Yeah. That’s such a good methodology, such a good way to visualize it, to organize it. I love it. And DNA painter, you can bring together the results from all the different companies, you know, using EDMA for ancestry, of course, but it is, it is a crate tool and it is not hard to use. That’s what I love about it. It is pretty simple. You can get the hang of it pretty fast and they have such good explanations on the site about how to use it. So if anyone listening has been afraid of DNA painter, don’t be cuz it is just a wonderful tool and it is fun and easy to use.

Roberta Estes (55m 31s):
It is. It’s a lot of fun. And I have for both genetic affairs and DNA painter on my blog, I have a summary post that has all the articles I’ve written. So you can step through step by step from the beginning. And I provide step by step visual images of how to use them. And also both of them have a Facebook group if you’re on Facebook and you can join that and ask questions and there’s really helpful people. And Johnny Pro with DNA painter and EJ Blum from Jamaica affairs are there to answer questions too. So they’re wonderful resources, both of them.

Nicole (56m 8s):
Well, I have one more question before we end thinking about challenges with autosomal DNA and Native populations does Pedigree collapse and atomy affect the matching there

Roberta Estes (56m 20s):
Actually it does, but let’s talk for just a second about the difference between Pedigree collapse and end Domy cuz it’s not exactly the same, but one leads to the other kind of sometimes. So Pedigree collapse is when you have the same ancestor in your tree in a known timeframe. So let let’s say that first cousins married each other, the Pedigree collapse is their grandparents on back because they’re shared Ancestors, but that’s just one time Inmy is where you have an entire population that intermarried over time, often the time before surnames. So some examples of that would be the Jewish population, Native Native American populations.

Roberta Estes (57m 5s):
So you have a restricted population and by restricted, I mean there’s very little in marriage because of geography or religious edicts. The Amish is another one brethren, those ones I deal with a lot. So the Acadians as well. So when you have Native American matches and you’re someone that’s entirely Native American, you have a lot of small segment matches and you match a lot of people usually on smaller segments because you share those. Not because you’re related in a genealogical timeframe, but because you’re related on a population basis.

Roberta Estes (57m 46s):
And there were only just so many people in the founding population. So their DNA got chopped up into little pieces and gets passed around in that population. And so for me, because my Native segments are small. I don’t see a lot of issues with Endy, but there are people that I’m gonna match on my Native segment. Not because I have an ancestor in the last few generations that’s findable, but because we share Ancestors further back in history and for Native people, many of those people didn’t even have surnames until after the removal in the 1830s.

Roberta Estes (58m 27s):
So the surname links may be evasive, not just because of something like either Pedigree, collapse or end Domy, but because of records issues. So you kind of have three strikes against you there, but when you do have the Native match so long as it phases correctly to the parent, meaning that the parent that’s Native also has it, then you know, it is actually, it’s a match by population maybe, but it’s still there. It’s still important. And it still comes through that ancestor, even if you can’t put a name to them. So it is a factor, but in a way, if, if it’s far back in time, so smaller segments, it can actually be a good thing because it wouldn’t, you wouldn’t have the matches otherwise.

Roberta Estes (59m 17s):
So in a way Endy kind of helps you here.

Nicole (59m 21s):
That’s a really positive way to look at it. And it makes sense that they would have those small segments chopped up after marrying within their tribe or their geographic area for a long period of time.

Roberta Estes (59m 33s):
Everybody thinks of edogamy as a negative thing. And it’s very challenging. Like I have some people that I work with that are fully Native or fully Jewish, oh gosh, those poor people. And there matches, but you know, when you’re, when you’re looking further back in time, it’s, it’s what preserves some of those segments for you.

Diana (59m 52s):
So interesting. Well, Thank you so much, Roberta, for coming on the podcast and sharing your wealth of knowledge. I feel like we could just talk to you forever about DNA because we love talking DNA and you love talking DNA and it is so fun. So to wrap this episode up, I am just going to go through the roadmap and checklist you have in your book, because I think it’s so great in the book. Roberta has like literally a table that you can check off when you’ve done something. So first you talk to family members and document details, getting the oral history, then you do your research and the documents. Then you do the Y or mitochondrial DNA.

Diana (1h 0m 32s):
If that applies and check your haplogroup, do your autosomal DNA test and check the haplogroup. If the vendor provides one and get all your autosomal tests on all the vendors, unlock all the tools and use your ethnicity estimates at all the different vendors, then use DNA, painter and tools at genetic affairs to find your Native segments and shared matches on those segments and then create your DNA Pedigree Chart. So I love that. There’s just this whole list that we can go through and check it off and see if we can come up with some answers to those myths or true stories about having Native American ancestry on our family tree.

Diana (1h 1m 17s):
So Thank you for putting together the book. And I know that’s a huge endeavor and anyone with Native American ancestry has a tool now to use

Roberta Estes (1h 1m 27s):
Well, Thank you so much for having me today and for reading the book, I really do appreciate it. And I hope that it helps other people, you know, even just putting this, this process together helped me because I had to use that on my own Ancestors. And I’ve found so much information. And even if what you find is at what you’d hope to find information is still information and it’s about your Ancestors and that’s what we’re all looking for.

Nicole (1h 1m 50s):
Agreed. I love that. Well, we hope all of our listeners have a great week and we will talk to you guys again next week. Bye-bye All right.

Diana (1h 1m 60s):
Bye-bye everyone.

Nicole (1h 2m 2s):
Thank you for listening. We hope that something you heard today will help you make progress in your research. If you want to learn more, purchase our books, Research Like a Pro and Research Like a Pro with DNA on Amazon.com and other booksellers. You can also register for our online courses or study groups of the same names. Learn more at FamilyLocket.com/services. To share your progress and ask questions, join our private Facebook group by sending us your book receipt or joining our courses to get updates in your email inbox each Monday, subscribe to our newsletter at FamilyLocket.com/newsletter. Please subscribe, rate and review our podcast. We read each review and are so thankful for them. We hope you’ll start now to Research Like a Pro.