RLP 273: Brick Wall Ancestor: Clemsy (Cline) Weatherford

Nicole (1s):
This is Research Like a Pro episode 273 Brick Wall Ancestor Clumsy Klein Weatherford Welcome to research Like a Pro a genealogy podcast about taking your research to the next level. Hosted by Nicole Dyer and Diana Elder accredited Genealogist professional Diana and Nicole are the mother daughter team at family Locket dot com and the authors of Research Like, a pro A Genealogist guide with Robin Wirthlin. They also co-authored the Companion Volume Research Like a Pro with DNA, join Diana and Nicole as they discuss how to stay organized, make progress in their research and solve difficult cases. Let’s go the sponsor of today’s episode of Research Like a Pro is newspapers.com, the largest online newspaper archive.

Nicole (49s):
Well Hi everybody Welcome to research. Like a Pro.

Diana (52s):
Hi Nicole, how are you today?

Nicole (54s):
I’m great. I’ve been working on citations and D N A matches for my kinship determination project, so I’m feeling like I’m on a roll.

Diana (1m 3s):
Well that’s exciting. So you’re adding D n A to that project.

Nicole (1m 7s):
Yeah, and I kind of had an epiphany today that anytime you want to add D n a evidence and prove a biological connection that turns it from a simple proof statement to a proof summary or a proof argument. Probably more like a proof argument.

Diana (1m 22s):
Yeah, that’s true.

Nicole (1m 23s):
Because you don’t have direct evidence of biological relationships. You only have indirect evidence that you have to create a proof argument about unless you have the D N A of your Ancestor that you are trying to prove of a parent to child relationship. And since we don’t have that, we just have the D N A of descendants, usually we have to make a proof argument

Diana (1m 42s):
That makes me think down the road, my grandchildren, great-grandchildren, they’ll have my mother’s D n A, they would have direct evidence Yeah. Of that relationship. That’s so interesting to think of going forward with D N A and Proving relationships.

Nicole (1m 60s):
Hmm, right. And you know, with all of the oldest generation that we’ve tested eventually passing away, then three of my grandparents have passed away and two of them have been D N A tested. So yeah, it is interesting to think about that.

Diana (2m 12s):
It is. Well I’ve been working on analyzing evidence for our study group assignment and it’s always fun to analyze a different record than you have done before. And for this project I had some land grant applications that were pulled for me from the national Archives. And so I was going through those and really thinking about, you know, the source. It was an original source. I had photos of the actual applications and then the different types of information I settled on primary information because you know, the Ancestor was going into the land office and declaring that he was paying this money for this piece of land direct evidence for that land purchase.

Diana (2m 53s):
So it was just fun to think of it in terms of source analysis.

Nicole (2m 58s):
Yeah, that’s always a Really good assignment to put our thinking caps on and analyze the sources information and evidence

Diana (3m 6s):
It is. And as we’ve talked about it in the study group, and I’ve been reviewing some of the other timelines and seeing some of the other situations that people have run into just reminds me that it can be really tricky and a little murky sometimes. And we’ve had to really dig into the actual source, learn more about the source to determine is this truly an original or is this a derivative? You know, is this a clerk’s copy? What exactly is this that we’re looking at? So it is a good assignment, it makes us learn more about the records and it really helps us understand what to use for our research and our evidence.

Nicole (3m 47s):
Yeah, and sometimes it can be challenging to understand who the informant was and was that information primary or secondary? And sometimes we just can’t find out who it was. So we have to say undetermined. Right.

Diana (3m 59s):
And I’m glad we’ve got that third option because you are so right. There are so many times we have no idea. One of the interesting ones that I saw was an obituary that was in a newspaper and often we have no idea who wrote it. But this one was fun because at the very end it had initials which matched up to one of the suns, and the last paragraph kept talking about this sun or you know, you really understood that this was one of the suns. And then with the initials it was pretty obvious this was the sun. And so that was fun to have the actual informant noted in the obituary in the news.

Nicole (4m 37s):
Oh wow. That is, let’s do our announcements. If you haven’t tried our Airtable Quick Reference guide yet, it’s a P D F four pages all about how to use Airtable for a Genealogy research log and incorporating D N A matches into that if you want to. So you can get that on our website. Now we have next month’s Research Like, a Pro Webinar and that is going to be given by Rick Wilson, a former Research Like, a Pro study group member, and he will be sharing a father for William Boyd, a case study using Eighteenth Century indirect evidence. And we’re looking forward to that. That’s October 17th. And if you are thinking about joining us for our next Research Like a Pro with D n A study group that begins February, 2024.

Nicole (5m 22s):
And if you would like to join without paying the registration fee, please apply as a peer group leader, then you will be in charge of leading the weekly peer group meetings. We are going to be at some conferences coming up. We have on demand presentations available at the East Coast Genetic Genealogy Conference, which is virtual and in person. And so you can look at those beginning October 6th. Diana’s is about pedigree triangulation, a key Methodology for genetic Genealogy and mine is about D N A and Genealogy research, how to confirm an ancestral line. So we hope you’ll join us there.

Diana (5m 58s):
Right. I’m excited for that conference. It’s always fun to hear more case studies about D N A and to see other people’s Methodology for using D N a. Well today we have a listener spotlight. This is from listener Dragon Wings 1 21, and the title is Informative and Engaging, unlocking Family History through a Fantastic Genealogy podcast. So this listener writes, I recently stumbled upon your Genealogy focused podcast and I’m thrilled to share my thoughts on its remarkable content. Your podcast provides an incredible platform for teaching and inspiring individuals to delve into their family history.

Diana (6m 38s):
Your expertise in Genealogy shines through as you provide invaluable tips, techniques, and resources to aid beginners and experience researchers alike. It’s evident that you generally enjoy helping others unlock the mysteries of their familial past. The inclusion of great guests on your podcast adds another layer of excitement and learning The diversity of perspectives and experiences they bring to the table makes each episode a delightful and insightful journey. Furthermore, your engaging interviewing style ensures that listeners are captivated and eager to absorb the shared knowledge. The relevance of the topics you cover is impressive. From exploring various research methods to uncovering ancestral stories, you successfully strike a balance between offering practical guidance and sharing fascinating stories that resonate with people on a personal level.

Diana (7m 28s):
This approach helps to keep the podcast both informative and entertaining in a world where connections to our past seem to fade. Your podcast serves as a powerful tool for individuals seeking to reconnect with their roots. I wholeheartedly recommend your podcast to anyone interested in Genealogy or simply curious about their family origins, your passion for the subject, the quality of your content, and the diverse perspective showcased through your guests. Make it a truly exceptional educational resource. Keep up the excellent work and I eagerly anticipate the next episode. Well Thank you so much for that glowing review. We really appreciate that and love to hear that we are engaging and helping people with their Genealogy.

Diana (8m 10s):
So Thank you.

Nicole (8m 12s):
Thanks. Today we get to talk about our Ancestor Clumsy Klein Weatherford who lived from 1870 to sometime after 1880. Now she is a Brick Wall Ancestor and we all have these often they are the women in our family tree. And this is a 52 Ancestors post that Diana wrote. So we’re gonna kind of dive into what we know about Clumsy Klein and the trail leading to learning more about her parents, what we have and what we’re missing. She is one of Diana’s third great-grandmothers. My fourth great-grandmother. When she first started researching Clumsy, other researchers attributed John Klein as her father. So John was added to our family tree.

Nicole (8m 53s):
But looking at Clumsy through the years, we just didn’t know how to tackle this Brick wall. But recently Diana completed a project and found some new clues that have opened up some new doors for research. There is a good candidate named John C Klein to explore for her father. So like many of our Ancestors c Clemsy was born in either eighteen, seventeen, eighteen twenty or 1825 according to the three censuses that list her by name. So nothing is really consistent there. And we just kind of have three different years since she headed her household as a widow. In 1880, we give the 1817 date of her birth in Alabama the most credence where she was probably reporting on her own birthdate.

Nicole (9m 37s):
And maybe she knew her own birthdate better than her husband did. So where Clumsy lived from her birth in Alabama to her appearance in Izard County, Arkansas as married woman is a mystery. So We don’t know where to look in Alabama for her father.

Diana (9m 54s):
Right? And one of the challenges is this common name of Klein, it’s pretty common and you can’t just say, okay, let’s look at all the Klein say in 1820 in Alabama. I mean we can, and I may actually have to do something like that to see if I can find a good candidate, but in cases like this, it’s always better to work with what you know and then see if you can work backward. So I do have her in Izard County Arkansas, and she is in the household of her husband, at least I’m assuming she’s in a household. It’s from a tax record of Henderson Weatherford there in 1839 in Izard County.

Diana (10m 36s):
And they are together in 1850 and they had children by that time. So you know, I’m guessing she was there in Izard. So let’s just learn a little bit more about Izard County. Well, it is in the north part of Arkansas and it’s in part of the area known as the Ozarks. So I included a map in the blog post that shows the Physiographic sections of the Ozarks and Izard is on the southern tip of the Salem Plateau. And learning about this, I found that this area is small mountains in rolling hills, and it was mostly uninhabited until after the war of 1812. And soldiers marching south to New Orleans or that war discovered the land.

Diana (11m 20s):
This had really just been largely the hunting ground of the native Osage tribe members. They didn’t live there, they would just go in there to hunt And. so it was land that no one had been living in. And apparently these soldiers that had marched south from say Kentucky or Tennessee or maybe even Indiana or Illinois, you know, going straight down to New Orleans, had seen this land and moved in. So I’m hypothesizing that perhaps her father was part of this. Maybe he participated in this march South and saw the land for himself. Or maybe when this land opened up, he just heard reports of new land to patent and moved his family west.

Diana (12m 4s):
We always wanna consider some different scenarios, but regardless of how she got there, somehow c Clemsy was in Izard County where we think she married Henderson. And sadly, this is a severely burned county. And so there are no marriage records, there’s just very few records and thankfully the tax records were sent to the state. And so those have survived. But interestingly enough, even the tax records are no longer available in original format, but we have a derivative. And in this case I am so grateful. So a gentleman named Desmond Allen Wells did a book copy of all the tax records and that is really where I’ve gleaned a lot of information.

Diana (12m 50s):
So we have Henderson paying taxes there in Izard in 1839, and her first child, Eliza Jane, was born about 1840. You know, that’s information gleaned from census records. And so I don’t have a marriage record, but I have got them there in that place in 1839. Now, you might be wondering how I even know Clemsy ISS maiden name because we don’t have a marriage record, but two of her youngest children were in Texas. The family moved out to Texas and they lived long enough to have a Texas death certificate and thankfully both of them gave the same maiden name of their mother and it was Klein. So that was really helpful to have the Klein surname because there are cases that we have where you don’t have a maiden name and you are really left in the dark.

Diana (13m 39s):
So I’m grateful we at least have the Klein and we’ve got her in Izard County.

Nicole (13m 44s):
Right. Without that clue, you’d just be looking for friends, associates, and neighbors looking in that county where maybe they got married to see if there’s any probate records that include a daughter of that same first name. It’s challenging.

Diana (13m 57s):
Yeah, and the problem is there are no probate records. Those that survive nor did any deeds. You know, all the things that we count on for our southern research were all destroyed. So that makes it really difficult. And you know, you can guess where the destruction was. It was civil wartime. This was just a hotly contested area between rebels and union soldiers and just going back and forth burning courthouses and destroying things all over the place. So makes research much more difficult for us.

Nicole (14m 30s):
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Nicole (15m 11s):
Just use the code family Locket at checkout. Don’t miss out on this credible opportunity. Well, the next place to look is Morgan County, Missouri. Because the family’s time in Izard County was limited. Clemsy had three more children in Arkansas, but by 1850 the Weatherford household had moved roughly 200 miles north to Morgan County, Missouri. On the northern end of the Salem Plateau, the household had grown to Henderson Clumsy their four children and two Klein children. So looking at their household in 1850, we see Henderson Weatherford, head of household age 35, born in Tennessee and with the occupation of Farmer and he owned $300 worth of real estate.

Nicole (15m 58s):
Then we have c Clemsy Weatherford age 30, born in Alabama, and Eliza Jane Weatherford age 10, Maryanne age six, John W, age four, and Clumsy D Weatherford age two. And all four of those Weatherford children were born in Arkansas. Then we have Talitha Klein age 10, born in Arkansas and John Klein, age eight, born in Arkansas. Now if the surname of Klein caught your attention for the two children listed in the 1850 household of the Weatherford family, it did ours as well. And Talitha and John Klein could very well be connected to Clemsy s birth family.

Nicole (16m 41s):
So another interesting connection on that same census page in Morgan County, Missouri is a nearby family named Jacob and Talitha Klein. And at first we thought perhaps the Klein children belonged to that family, but in comparing the households, the birthplace didn’t really match up. It wouldn’t really make sense for there to be two John Kleins who were the son of Jacob Klein because the Jacob Klein household had a John Klein who was age 12. And then as we said in the Weatherford household, there was a John Klein age eight. So that hypothesis didn’t really make sense for the two Klein children in Cressey’s household to be Jacob’s children.

Nicole (17m 25s):
Another interesting Klein family group is Mahala and Robert who were listed after the Jacob and Talitha Klein family. And these have the same Alabama Arkansas birthplace as C Clemsy and her children. So that’s pretty interesting. And let’s just go through this household of Jacob Klein. So nearby Henderson and c Clemsy Weatherford, we have the Jacob and Talitha Klein household. Jacob is 39 to Letha ISS 43. Jacob was born in Virginia. He’s also a Farmer and owns $300 worth of real estate. So it makes you kind of think that maybe Jacob and Henderson Weatherford owned similar land about the same size possibly then Jacob and to Letha is first child listed.

Nicole (18m 6s):
There is Reuben Klein, age 13, born in Kentucky. Then John m Klein, age 12, born in Kentucky. And then the next three were born in Missouri, Elizabeth, age 11, Jacob age seven, and Basil age two, which is such a fun name. And then is this correct that this is a new household, Mahala and Robert?

Diana (18m 25s):
No, they’re listed with the Jacob and Talitha. Klein.

Nicole (18m 27s):
Okay. But then Mahala is age 22, born in Alabama, and Robert is age five born in Arkansas. So it kind of makes you wonder if that’s like a separate family group there.

Diana (18m 39s):
Right. And I think the instructor was to list all the members of his self and his wife and then all of his children and then other people in the household. And so these are obviously not part of his household, they are other people. And I really was interested in Mahala, who’s also born in Alabama, same place that Clumsy was born and that Robert was in Arkansas. So it makes me think that maybe Robert and Mahala are connected to that Arkansas group. Wow. It just really brings everything together. And Jacob, even though Jacob Klein, the head of household was supposedly born in Virginia and his children all born in Kentucky, Missouri, you know, they don’t have any Arkansas connection, but he’s quite a bit older.

Diana (19m 24s):
So you know, I’m just trying to wonder. Okay. There’s definitely a connection ’cause Mahala and Robert are in his household.

Nicole (19m 29s):
Yeah, that’s such a great clue. And maybe the Klein family originated in Virginia since Jacob was 39 here and then by the time Clemsy was born, she’s 30, they were in Alabama, stayed there until Mahala was born. If that’s a younger sister, she was age 22. Born in Alabama. You can kind of guess at a a Migration pattern if these truly are siblings.

Diana (19m 50s):
Right. And I did find quite a bit about Jacob and Talitha Klein in Morgan County. They were married in Kentucky. So I wonder if he just went up to Kentucky. I did a lot of research in the county of Kentucky where they were married. And the only thing, there are just a couple of tax records for him, and there was not a Klein family living there. So it looked like he was, you know, a lone wolf that just went up to Kentucky, got married, and then they came down to Morgan County and settled

Nicole (20m 20s):
For sure. And while Talitha was born in Kentucky, so he must have lived there because she was from there. And their children who were born in Kentucky were just Reuben and John, who were age 13 and 12. So maybe they only lived there for a couple years

Diana (20m 34s):
And then they moved down to Morgan County. Right. So in trying to find a candidate for the father of Clumsy, I did go back to Izard County Arkansas to try to find a possible father and then also for a father for Mahala and Jacob if they were her siblings. And I did find a John C Klein. And this was through land patents. I love land patents because if the courthouse burns, those are not part of that. And you have those preserved. So this John C Klein patented land and was taxed in Izard County during this very same time that Clemsy and Henderson were there during the 1840s.

Diana (21m 19s):
And that the 1850 census found him in neighboring Fulton County, just the division of Izard created this Fulton County. And so who knows if he even moved, he could have been in the same place, but the county boundary changed and he was in Fulton County and 1850 gives us so much more information. It gave the information that he was aged 65. So he certainly was old enough to be a father for Clumsy and also for Jacob and Mahala. Yeah, it was interesting that he was born in Pennsylvania. Then I’m thinking, okay, so the Klein surname seems to have originated with a German, you know, origin spelled K L E I N, and then this, by this time it’s been anglicized to C L I N E.

Diana (22m 10s):
So it makes me wonder if he was part of, perhaps the Pennsylvania Germans came down to Virginia, let’s just go out on a limb here, moved down to Alabama, then to Arkansas. You know, could this be a possible Migration pattern for this family? So that’s what I’m looking to figure out.

Nicole (22m 30s):
That’s cool. And I love that even though Izard County had a lot of record loss, you were able to find federal level records with the land patent and state level records with the tax, or was the tax, so records just written down in that book?

Diana (22m 45s):
Yes, they were. They had been sent to the state. Okay. And so that’s why they survived.

Nicole (22m 50s):
Yeah. So you have those federal and state level records when the county burns, that’s what you have to really focus on. Exactly.

Diana (22m 55s):
Those alternate jurisdictions. And then we also have to just gather up that fan club, those friends, family associates and neighbors, which is who all these client people are. So it is, it’s a challenging project, but I really do hope to add D n A to it. I just feel like I need a little bit stronger base of documentary work, you know, which is what I’ve been trying to shore up before I jump to D N A.

Nicole (23m 21s):
Exactly. I mean, when you have hypothesized siblings like that, it’s a perfect case to use d n a evidence on.

Diana (23m 28s):
Right. So let’s just finish up with what we know about Clemsy. She and Henderson continued their pattern of westward Migration by moving from Morgan County, Missouri to Dallas County, Texas, where Henderson worked as a blacksmith. So changed occupations a bit. This move actually brought them closer to the Weatherford extended family. Henderson’s mother and siblings had also moved to Dallas County And. so it appears that Clemsy made the choice to leave behind her Klein family in Missouri and move out to Texas. So the years following the 1860 census enumeration were filled with war and reconstruction, and life in Texas was not easy, as we know.

Diana (24m 15s):
And by 1880, Clumsy was a widow. She headed the household and that’s the one where she gave, we’re hoping her own information. She was age 63, and her youngest son, Samuel h Weatherford, was the only one in the household. And he was born in 1862. So after the families moved to Texas, he was farming in Clemsy kept house, and she did identify a birthplace for her father as Virginia. It was so great that she lived to 1880 for that information. Her parents and her mother was born in Georgia, so that really makes sense with an Alabama birth. So she does say she was born in Alabama, her father in Virginia, her mother in Georgia makes me just think again of Migration patterns.

Diana (25m 2s):
Her father coming down south and finding this woman to marry probably in Georgia, moving over to Alabama. So, you know, again hypothesizing, but very interesting to look at all, all of those informational pieces.

Nicole (25m 21s):
Yeah, there’s definitely some connected threads, although it doesn’t perfectly line up with John Klein’s birthplace of Pennsylvania, but Jacob definitely was born in Virginia. Well he says he was. And it kind of does line up with this, these places we’ve been seeing. So it’s good to see some clues coming together.

Diana (25m 40s):
Yeah, it is good. And you know, I often think sometimes when people are older, like Clemsy was, you know, a little bit later in life and she probably hadn’t lived with her father. Maybe he had died years ago and she had just heard more stories about Virginia. I don’t know, it could be that Jacob and Clumsy are cousins, maybe they are not siblings, you know, maybe they’re first cousins. And so we always have to avoid confirmation bias and really think outside of our main hypothesis for some of these things. But I feel like I’ve got a good clue now and some people to work with, with these different people discovered in the land patents.

Diana (26m 23s):
You know, one of the things that we didn’t mention was in that those land patents, not only was there John, C Klein, there were two other clients, there was a younger John Klein and a Maha Klein also patenting land right at the same time in Izard County. And so I keep looking at that and thinking about it. Would Mahala Klein age 22 in 1850, would she had been old enough to patent land in, you know, the 1840s? I could never find an actual age that you had to beat to patent land for federal land patents. Maybe you’ve heard of that. But I have done some research and I cannot find any stipulation. So I wonder if John C Klein just had her go in and you know, had her apply for under her name.

Diana (27m 8s):
I don’t know. I ordered the original patent applications and there’s no information there to help either.

Nicole (27m 15s):
Huh. It made me wonder if she was widowed at a young age and just finished the patent with her name after her husband died. Like maybe she’s not a sister. Maybe she’s a sister-in-law.

Diana (27m 26s):
And I have had that thought too, that that’s very, very likely. And is Robert her son? You know, he’s age five in the household of Jacob Klein, so she would’ve been 17 when he was born and people did marry early. Maybe she married really early, you know, age 14 or 15. So that’s really a good point and something to keep in mind. Yeah. Well it’s a fun case. I’m enjoying digging into it, doing research, drawing conclusions or trying to, so we don’t know when Clumsy died. She is on the 1880 census and then she’s gone and We don’t know where she’s buried. That happened with a lot of our Texas Ancestors, just kind of a difficult time there to find anything.

Diana (28m 11s):
So she remains a Brick, Wall, Ancestor. But I feel like each step we’re coming a little bit closer to Discovering, her origins.

Nicole (28m 18s):
Great. So you wrote up a report about this?

Diana (28m 21s):
Yes, I did. So I had worked on this for a project and it was one of the city group projects, I believe a year ago. And I did have a complete report written about it and I wrote a few blog posts about it as well. And so we can link to those in the show notes if someone would like to go read more about the specific research Methodology that I used.

Nicole (28m 46s):
Well great. Yeah, it’s nice to have that progress report. Even though this case isn’t fully solved, you have next steps ready to go. You’re getting some ideas of what to do next for documentary and then hopefully adding in the D n A evidence will help you get even closer to the answer.

Diana (29m 3s):
Right. And before I really had a process to do this, I just felt like I was banging my head against this Brick wall thinking, I don’t know what else to do next. And so it’s neat to have learned by experience and to have developed some new ideas and new methodologies for going forward with a case like this.

Nicole (29m 22s):
Great. Alright everyone, thanks for listening this week. If you have a Brick wall like this, we hope that you’ll join us sometime for our Research Like a Pro Study group so that you can also make progress in your research.

Diana (29m 34s):
All right, we’ll talk to you next time. Bye-bye everyone.

Nicole (29m 37s):
Bye. Thank you for listening. We hope that something you heard today will help you make progress in your research. If you want to learn more, purchase our books, Research Like, a Pro and Research Like a Pro at d a on amazon.com and other booksellers. You can also register for our online courses or study groups of the same names. Learn more at family Locket dot com slash services. To share your progress and ask questions, join our private Facebook group by sending us your book receipt or joining our courses to get updates in your email inbox each Monday. Subscribe to our newsletter at family Locket dot com slash newsletter. Please Subscribe rate and review our podcast. We read each review and are so thankful for them. We hope you’ll start now to Research Like a Pro.