RLP 327: Finding DNA Test-Takers with Descendancy Research

Nicole (1s):
This is Research Like a Pro episode 327, How to find DNA Test Takers with Descendancy Research. Welcome to Research Like a Pro a Genealogy Podcast about taking your research to the next level, hosted by Nicole Dyer and Diana Elder accredited genealogy professional. Diana and Nicole are the mother-daughter team at FamilyLocket.com and the creators of the Amazon bestselling book, The Research Like a Pro a Genealogists Guide. I’m Nicole co-host of the podcast join Diana and me as we discuss how to stay organized, make progress in our research and solve difficult cases.

Nicole (40s):
Let’s go. Today’s episode is sponsored by Newspapers.com. Hi everyone, welcome to Research Like a Pro, and hi to you Mom

Diana (51s):
Hi Nicole. How are you doing today?

Nicole (53s):
Great. So tell me what are you working on? How’s your research coming?

Diana (58s):
Well, I’m working on my Weatherford project and my objective was to confirm a set of parents for my Henderson Weatherford, for everyone who’s been listening to me talk about Clemsy Cline, well this is her husband, so I’m switching over to the WeatherFords for this, this project. But when I looked at my Ancestry tree, I saw that I actually have two sets of parents because it doesn’t seem like anyone can decide if Henderson is the youngest child of one set or the oldest child of one of their sons. So anyway, these people would either be grandparents or parents. But in doing the timeline, I’m even starting to wonder if he’s connected to this family at all because in my Cline research in Arkansas, I discovered in the tax records a lot of Weatherfords that were there right when he was, and they seem to stay there in Arkansas and I think it might just be happenstance that he ends up in Dallas, Texas with these other Weatherfords because he doesn’t live by them.

Diana (2m 4s):
Hmm. And the Cline family went over to Dallas County, Texas as well. so I’m wondering if he just went with his wife’s family and just happened to be there with the other Weatherfords and so he’s been assigned to their families because of course there’s no records anywhere of him connecting really to these people.

Nicole (2m 22s):
Wow. You opened a whole can of worms. You thought it was a simple objective and now it’s all all kinds of

Diana (2m 27s):
Yeah.

Nicole (2m 27s):
Different things happening.

Diana (2m 28s):
Exactly. So I’m, I’m building upon all the work I’ve done and even with the Isabella Weatherford project I did over the summer as part of our AI course because that pointed to Henderson’s death after 1860, we finally found his widow Clemsy in Missouri by herself with a couple children in 1870 and he’s just not in the tax records anymore after 1860. So I am gonna have to take a closer look at those Arkansas Weatherfords. But you know, it’s really interesting because if I hadn’t figured out all Cline information, I would still have been thinking he just went with the other Weatherfords instead of this alternate hypothesis that he perhaps moved because of the Clines moving over.

Nicole (3m 14s):
Oh,

Diana (3m 15s):
Isn’t that interesting?

Nicole (3m 16s):
It really is all interrelated. We can’t research individuals alone. It’s all about their extended family and relatives associates. It’s amazing.

Diana (3m 25s):
It really is. And so it’s been actually really fun kind of returning to this family but with a bit of a different take. So I am still stuck in Arkansas apparently. And of course these are the burned counties. So I’m, but I have those tax records, so I’m going to really look at the originals. I only have the derivatives now from my book and so I’m hoping like it did with my Cline project that the originals will gimme some really good information. We can hope.

Nicole (3m 57s):
Yeah. And those are the state copies, right? That’s so great that those survived.

Diana (4m 3s):
Yes, those and federal land patents are about all that are there for this time and the census of course. So I’m going to try to correlate all these different Weatherfords are there and see if I can maybe get a better hypothesis for a father. And then of course I’ve, I believe they do go back to Illinois maybe, I’m not sure Clemsy was born in Illinois, but maybe the Clines, her father, they moved to Arkansas and that’s where they met up with the Weatherfords maybe so, so Henderson always says he’s born in Tennessee, I got some work to do here.

Nicole (4m 34s):
Right. And maybe this will be a good lead in to the DNA Study Group and you can look for DNA matches that point to a particular Weatherford family.

Diana (4m 43s):
I think that’s going to be exactly what I do because when I did a quick look at ThroughLines, there were not hardly any matches to these proposed siblings of Henderson and, it was a large family. There should be a ton of matches and so this is kind of putting up a red flag that maybe this really is not the correct family. So yeah, and network graphs we’re being able to do those again. And so I’m thinking, yeah, this could be really fun to work with DNA on this after I do kind of a foundational project here.

Nicole (5m 14s):
Fantastic. That’s awesome. Yeah, I’ve been wrapping up my DNA project from the spring. I just had a few loose ends trying to write, write the rest of the report and, and I’ve been working on doing some grouping of the YDNA test takers that are in the Dyer surname project and that’s been really interesting looking at all the different Dyer subgroups and really learning about the surname Dyer and how there’s gonna be many ancestors who started the Dyer surname in various locations because it is occupational. And then in Ireland it, I think we talked about this before, but it’s just interesting to see how the different surnames, like I wonder now is whether for all going to go back to the same one ancestor or are there different groups of Weatherfords that have totally different origins?

Diana (6m 5s):
Well we always have to wonder that, don’t we? And that’s where the YDNA testing comes into play. Well there is a very famous Weatherford who was part Native American or full Native American and I’ve always wondered about the connection there. So yeah, there’s a lot to unpack with surnames, that’s for sure. But the Dyer Project, that’s so neat and I never thought about Dyer being an occupation. you know, the people who were involved in dyeing, I guess great coloring the cloth. Yep. That’s so cool.

Nicole (6m 35s):
Exactly.

Diana (6m 37s):
Well let’s do some announcements. We have our Research Like a Pro Webinar Series ongoing. It’s been such a great year. And our next presentation will be October 15th, that’s a Tuesday at 11:00 AM Mountain Time. The presenter is Emma Lowe who is one of our wonderful researchers and her title is Crossing the Pond: Tracing Dorothea’s Roots in 19th Century Pomerania. So this one is all about a German immigrant and this case study will cover Germany, immigration, Evangelical-Lutheran church records, German civil registration, locality survey, resolving conflicting evidence, German research resources.

Diana (7m 21s):
So for anyone who’s really working on trying to track down German ancestors, this would be such a good case study. Our next Research Like a Pro DNA study group begins February, 2025 and registration for that will begin in December of this year. And the peer group leader application is on our website. So be thinking if you would like to lead a small group and have complimentary registration. We can let you know about coupons and interesting things if you join our newsletters. So look for that on FamilyLocket, and upcoming conferences. We have the Texas State Genealogical Society Family History Conference coming up November 1st and 2nd. so I will be giving three lectures there, And, it will be fun to talk about some interesting things that I’ve learned about Indian Territory settlers and migrating ancestors.

Diana (8m 12s):
so I’m excited to be part of that. Well today we are going to talk all about how to find DNA Test Takers with Descendancy Research. And this is one of the challenges of DNA work is trying to find out more about living people because they are so key to our DNA work. So they take a DNA test and then we see that we match them and then we use that as evidence to answer our genealogical research questions. So as we go about finding this DNA evidence, there are two scenarios where we have to try to determine the identity of a living individual.

Diana (8m 52s):
First we have to figure out their identity from our DNA match list and often they haven’t linked to family tree or there’s no identifying information in their profile or they don’t respond to messages. So that’s tricky. And then also we may lack enough DNA evidence, so we have to find more people and ask them to take a DNA test. So Nicole’s been doing this in the Dyer project. Additional Y-DNA test takers could really help with that hypothesis that John Robert Dyer born 1813 was related to James Dyer born 1804 and resided with Bedey Dyer and B-E-D-E-Y, I’m not sure how to say that, maybe Beady Dyer in Granger County in 1850.

Diana (9m 39s):
So there are a lot of autosomal DNA matches between the descendants of the two men. But now it’s important to see if their descendants have matching YDNA. So there are three ways to go about finding the identity of living people. You can do descendancy research where you trace a person’s descendants, ascendancy research building a person’s tree or a combination of both. So in this episode we’re going to talk all about the steps to do the descendancy research and for this little bit of a case study, Nicole’s trying to find those descendants of James Dyer.

Nicole (10m 21s):
Well, before we start with finding his children, James Dyer, we need to really work on identifying our starting ancestor and make sure we have the facts about his life correct and evidence linking him to his children. We don’t wanna trace the wrong children forward. That would just be a waste of time. So that’s the first step in Descendancy research and it’s to fully identify the starting ancestor, including their biographical details, residences and relationships. So once you know who your ancestor was and you’ve separated him from other people of the same name, you’re ready to trace their children forward in time. And so we don’t wanna skip this step.

Nicole (11m 3s):
In a previous research project I worked to document the life of James Dyer, so I had a pretty good start for identifying him and basically it comes down to he lived in Granger County in 1850 and the specific place within Granger County he lived was the eighth district. It was civil districts and there were actually several men named James Dyer there and so I needed to know exactly which district he lived in. And their household had a bunch of children. They had 10 children listed, inferred children, listed in 1850. And so all of these children were born between 1829 and 1848 in Tennessee.

Nicole (11m 44s):
And their names were John, Jane, Nancy, Hubbard, Warren, Sarah, Mary, Corbin, Emmaline and Eliza. And those were the 1850 census inferred children. Well I also saw on that 1850 census that a close neighbor to James was a William L. Dyer age 25, born in Tennessee, so I guessed that he was an an older son who had already been married and moved out, another son of James. So that was kind of the starting point and with so many men named James Dyer living in Granger County at that same time I had to separate a merged identity.

Nicole (12m 25s):
And this occurred in the memorial at Find a Grave for James Dyer. And it was interesting because the memorial included all these children that I just listed that were on the 1850 census with James and Bedey. So that looked correct. And then it had the a different wife, it didn’t have Bedey, it had someone else, Lucinda Martin Clevenger, and I’d never heard of her. And then it had a headstone that was in a cemetery in a totally different county. So there were some suspicious things. And in my research log I noted all these inconsistencies and tried to kind of figure it out. And when I looked at Lucinda’s Memorial on Find a Grave, I saw that she was connected to two James Dyers.

Nicole (13m 11s):
And so the other one was probably her correct husband and this one was just like kind of a merged duplicate problem. So it needs to be all straightened out by the person who manages it. But basically it looks like they kind of got mixed up and a couple of the details like the headstone got merged with the the child list of a different one and I don’t think that my research subject James has a headstone and that’s probably part of the problem. So the child list definitely belongs to James and Bedey Dyer who lived in Granger. And then headstone belongs to a different James who lived in Union County, Tennessee and Mary Lucinda Clevenger.

Nicole (13m 51s):
And there’s also the possibility there’s a third James Dyer related to all these people. And so I let the person who manages the Find a Grave Memorial know about the issues. But I had to get that straight before I could proceed. While continuing to identify James, I found that there was no marriage record for him and Bedey in Tennessee or North Carolina that I could find. I did find that he was taxed in Granger County in that same eighth civil district in 1851. It was in the tax company of John A. McKinney and there was another Dyer in that district in 1851, John Dyer and that was probably his older son who lived in the household.

Nicole (14m 32s):
And then they were both taxed again in 1852, but then in 1853 neither of them were taxed and the only Dyer in the district in eighth district was Neri Dyer, NERI. And I wondered if that was Nero, and then I also wondered if that was like a middle name for John. I saw that James lived in district eight again in 1860, so I had to just figured that he aged out of the tax by 1853 and that’s why he wasn’t listed anymore. Because if he was aged 50 in 1853, he was born about 1803 or 1804, which corresponds with his 1850 census age of 46. And so that all seemed to line up.

Nicole (15m 13s):
It looks like Bedey died after 1860 and James remarried to Mary Shaver in 1866 and they lived in District 10 of Granger County in 1870. And some of the children listed were Jane, which was present in 1850 and then two probable stepchildren who were listed as Dyers. But then later I think they were listed as Shavers, Elizabeth and Robert and then two younger children which were new children to the new couple, Harriet and James Dyer. Then in 1880, James lived in district one of Granger County with his second wife Mary and their children, Harriet ,James and Samuel, they had another son Samuel. So I actually found some younger children and I haven’t done any descendency research on these younger children yet, but they are good avenues to work on.

Nicole (15m 58s):
Well after 1880 there were no more records that I could find for James of Granger County. So now that I have fully identified him with relevant census tax, marriage and other records, I have figured out who his likely children are. I’m ready to begin the Descendancy research.

Diana (16m 14s):
Wow, you have a lot of children to work with on that descendancy research and that so often happens with these southern families, doesn’t it? Yeah. And then you’ve also got the challenge of siblings who would be half siblings. Well that’s great. So now the next step for this descendancy research after you have really identified the family, is to choose a child and begin building their family tree downward. And it might seem natural to start with the oldest, however you can choose to prioritize a little bit differently. So consider two different things, strength of evidence linking the child to the parents and younger children with later birth years.

Diana (16m 57s):
So it’s often helpful when we’re looking for DNA test candidates to start with those youngest children to find people born in recent times. So in this case Nicole focused on sons because we’re looking for YDNA testing candidates, we have to follow that male line and the evidence linking the oldest child, William L. Dyer to his father was just not as strong as some of the other sons because he never lived in James’ household. Well he may have lived in the household but he’s not on the census is where he is actually named as being in the household. So birth years also played a role and the oldest son of James and Bedey was William L.

Diana (17m 40s):
Dyer, born 1825, but the youngest son was Calvin who was born in 1842 and 17 years can make a big difference in finding a living test taker versus finding a potential test taker who passed away with no children 10 years prior. So James’ youngest sons were his children by his second wife and they were born in 1869 and 1872. But so far there have been no autosomal DNA matches found to these men. So instead Nicole focused on children of James and Betty at first choosing Calvin to start with. So after you choose a child of the research subject to start with, consider building quick trees and ancestry.

Diana (18m 22s):
And that’s so great because it lets you use all of those hints that ancestry likes to give you and that is using artificial intelligence to find records that probably match your research subject. So tracing Calvin forward in time, Nicole was able to attach a lot of censuses 1860, 1870 1880, 1900, 1910 and 1920. That’s so great. All the different censuses. And so this gives you such a good idea of all the children’s names if you can find someone that lives long and into the 20th century and and you can get that run of censuses.

Diana (19m 2s):
So then correlating those censuses with obituaries and vital records like birth marriage and death certificates and Find a Grave memorials which are also really, really helpful. Nicole picked one of their sons and started tracing them down in time. So we’ve mentioned Find a Grave a couple times and with each generation that such a crucial step because it quickly helps you see if there are any memorials linked and to see if an obituary is included. And those obituaries are key to our descendancy because they will list living children who have survived their parent and give them a residence.

Nicole (19m 41s):
Yes, that was really important and every time I was looking at potential test takers who kind of seemed to live in the present day, I would cross my fingers that I would be able to find them listed on either their mother’s or their father’s obituary listing where they currently lived at that time. And sometimes if the death of their parent occurred in like 2010 or 2015 or 2020, then that gives me like a really good idea of where they lived in recent years to try to pinpoint how to contact them. So that was helpful. Well speaking of where people are living, a really important part of tracing these children forward is to pay attention to where the family lives.

Nicole (20m 24s):
And sometimes they’ll all be from the same hometown or maybe the children have all scattered, but it’s good to get an idea of where the family is living in the present day. And sometimes they will end up in the same area or region and then this will help you locate them with the People Finder websites. And one way to bridge between an obituary or the descendancy research that gets you to 1950 on the census and then getting to the People Finder websites is by using the public records databases. And Ancestry has some really good public records databases that you can use. So for people who lived after 1994, they have the US Index to Public Records 1994 to 2019.

Nicole (21m 4s):
Then for prior to 1993, they have two volumes of the public record index that goes from 1950 to 1993. And these are three different collections, but they’re all the same type of thing. Public records index. So these collections at Ancestry give you usually the person’s name of course, and then sometimes the birth year or birthdate. And every once in a while you’ll see just like the month and the year of their birth and then a list of the places they have lived, including addresses. And the information in the public records index was compiled from a variety of public records.

Nicole (21m 44s):
And the various type of records we use to create this index include telephone directories, marketing lists, postal change of address forms, public record filings, directory assistance records and property and land records. So did you know that all of those were public? I didn’t know that postal change of address forms were public.

Diana (22m 5s):
That is so interesting. Yeah, that’s a pretty good list. That’s why you can find so many people.

Nicole (22m 11s):
It’s really good. Well if you look up yourself, you’ll be shocked. I looked up myself and found all my information. Yeah, and so it can be surprising And you know, I was talking with my husband about it and he was like, oh should, should we be concerned about that? And one thing that is good is that it’s not available to everyone. This public records database is only available to Ancestry subscribers I believe. So you have to be a subscriber to Ancestry to go search. So hopefully it’s mostly Genealogists using it.

Diana (22m 41s):
Well I looked up myself and I do have several. I’m in the funeral home collection of Via my Mother and the obituary of my dad and I in some newspapers getting married and in yearbooks. Oh my goodness. Yeah, that’s fun.

Nicole (22m 58s):
Right. Well I have an example of what you might see from the public records index at Ancestry and this is a record that likely belongs to my great-grandfather. I don’t actually know for sure because I didn’t really know his addresses. So maybe you can tell me mom if this is right. so I looked up Charles Rudolph Elder and found this entry in the public records database for Charles R Elder. It has a phone number and an address in Seattle and one of the addresses is in Tacoma. One is on a street called Ravenna Avenue, which sounded familiar.

Diana (23m 33s):
I think these are correct. I actually have not ever been at any of those addresses, but knowing kind of where they live, that sounds right.

Nicole (23m 40s):
Yeah. So anyway, it can be really helpful to get some potential addresses, some more research avenues, some potential people to contact. And this one has a phone number, so if he was still living, this would be good. Obviously he’s not still living. My great-grandfather passed away a long time ago, but this was just kinda an example of what you can see. And it has, so it starts with his name, then it has his phone number, his address, and then it has a second residence date and another address and phone number, a third residence date from 1993 and another phone number and address and then a fourth phone number and address. So, and some of them are the same, but it just kinda gives you some ideas.

Diana (24m 17s):
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Diana (25m 0s):
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Diana (25m 44s):
So let’s start talk first of all with social media. So if you are good at searching social media, you can try reaching out on platforms like Facebook or LinkedIn and if that’s not working, you can write a letter and mail it. That often works better for perhaps older people who maybe they set up a social media account years ago, but then they never go back to it or look at it again. But if you send a letter in the mail, that might be exactly what you need to do to get in contact with them. It can be challenging though to know which address to use. And so that’s why it’s helpful to correlate public record databases with various addresses with the people finder sites and social media.

Diana (26m 28s):
So sometimes Facebook profiles will state a person’s hometown in addition to where they currently reside.

Nicole (26m 35s):
Yeah, that can be really helpful to look and see in the about information on Facebook and see they’re from a certain place like their hometown and then they currently live somewhere else. And that helped me in one particular case to see, oh, this is where they’re from, but this is where they live now. So you just never know what details people will make public on their Facebook profiles or LinkedIn profiles. So it’s good to see what’s out there. We mentioned people finder sites and these include websites like WhitePages.com, BeenVerified, Spokeo and so forth. There’s a lot of them out there and sometimes they charge, sometimes they’re free. One of my current favorites is True People Search And it’s truepeoplesearch.com.

Nicole (27m 17s):
What I like about it is it’s free and it’s really lightweight, meaning it doesn’t have a lot of like extra things you have to click through on the website like clicking, like I think BeenVerified makes you click through so many screens, it’s constantly loading more information and then it finally asks you to pay. So I like this one, it’s just a simple database. It allows you to search for someone by name, by their phone number, by their address, or by their email. And this email search is really helpful when you’re looking for DNA matches who have shared their email address like at GEDMatch and at FamilyTreeDNA. so I looked up my grandfather by his name at True People Search.

Nicole (28m 0s):
He passed away in 2015, so I searched Charles Elder and found his True People Search profile. Charles William Elder, death recorded September, 2015, age 87 lives in Springville, Utah. Then it had a phone number, then it has like a, a sponsored link to purchase a full background report, which I just usually skip. It has some also seen as or also known as names. And none of these really looked quite right. So sometimes there will be wrong information. And so this had like Charles M Elder, which maybe that was a, a typo for Charles W Elder. It had William C Elder and CWL Elder.

Nicole (28m 42s):
So just a couple things that it lumped together and didn’t seem quite right but maybe were close. It did have the address in Springville where he lived when he died. And it had some phone numbers, And, it has some additional sections like email addresses, which none of them happen to be correct that I know of. And then previous addresses possible relatives and possible associates, the possible relatives part is so helpful on this page I noticed about 85% of the information on the page for my grandfather was accurate and some of that information was just incorrect. So the first two emails were wrong, but most of the relatives were accurate and the last address and the death information were tr were accurate and good.

Nicole (29m 30s):
So it’s just good to be aware that some of that information you see on these people finder websites won’t be right, but some will be right and we can definitely use it as clues to help us get closer to making contact with these relatives of ours that we’d like to collaborate with.

Diana (29m 48s):
Absolutely.

Nicole (29m 49s):
In the Dyer case, I traced all of Calvin’s male lines forward, yet only one Descendancy line had living male descendants. It was interesting, I was, I was always so surprised when one line would just kind of end or someone had no children or they had only stepchildren or they had only daughters. So sometimes trying to find a Y-DNA descendant or a mitochondrial descendant can be challenging and I was excited to finally find one line that had living sons. And so there were three brothers after tracing all of Calvin’s lines forward, at least the male ones.

Nicole (30m 31s):
I went ahead and moved on to another brother of Calvin, another one of James and Bedey’s sons and I found one more living descendant. So I’m still working on contacting them. I’ve sent them some preliminary messages and we’ll continue to try to reach out. One avenue that I’m working on is trying to reach out to some of their relatives who are interested in family history. And one of the lines that I found had a living male Dyer candidate. His sister I think had taken a DNA test already. So I’ve reached out to her and I’ve been talking to her. So that’s another thing that I’ve noticed can be really useful is if you talk to someone in the family, like a first cousin or sister or aunt or someone who’s already kind of doing family history research, has maybe taken a DNA test.

Nicole (31m 16s):
I found her because she was a match in in Ancestry autosomally. And so if they’ve already done that, then maybe they could be the liaison to connect you with that person and and encourage them to take the YDNA test.

Diana (31m 31s):
Yeah, I think that’s so helpful because they’ve already done it and I’ve noticed that too that that seems to really help. Well let’s wrap this up. So hopefully everyone listening has realized that descendancy research can be a really powerful tool as we’re working on our genetic genealogy because it lets us bridge that gap between our historical research subjects and the potential living DNA test takers. So by following the steps we’ve been talking about first identifying the starting ancestor second tracing children for forward in time and then finally finding those living descendants.

Diana (32m 12s):
Then we can find people who could take a DNA test and we can collaborate with them. This process does require patience and attention to detail and ethical considerations. So as we are looking through our generations of records and into the realm of living individuals, we really have to approach this with care and respect for privacy using both genealogical research and then tools like the public record databases, people finder website, social media. Let’s make the connections. And it’s really exciting when you can find someone who will take a DNA test for you, especially if it’s a targeted tester and it’s the perfect person for that YDNA line or mitochondrial DNA line or even if it’s just somebody coming down through a line that you want to test for autosomal DNA, ’cause you didn’t have that line represented.

Diana (33m 9s):
So whatever you’re doing, it will be really helpful if you can learn these techniques of doing descendancy research to help you find those living people to assist and add more evidence. This is the one kind of evidence we can actually add in our genealogy finding more DNA. Yeah. Can’t go out and and do another birth certificate, can we? But we can certainly find more people to do DNA tests, right?

Nicole (33m 33s):
And it. It’s exciting and it’s also frustrating when we find someone and then they don’t respond or they, they would rather not test, but there’s always that potential to find someone and, and even if they don’t wanna take a test, they’re still a valuable cousin we can collaborate with and learn more about their branch of the family. So it’s a really valuable endeavor to locate our living cousins and, and work together and collaborate on family history together. It’s just a fun, a part of the whole genetic genealogy field.

Diana (34m 8s):
Absolutely.

Nicole (34m 9s):
Well thanks everyone for listening and we hope you have a great week and we’ll talk to you again next week. Bye-Bye.

Diana (34m 16s):
Alright, bye-Bye

Nicole (34m 18s):
Thank you for listening. We hope that something you heard today will help you make progress in your research. If you want to learn more, purchase our books, Research Like a Pro and Research Like a Pro with DNA on Amazon.com and other booksellers. You can also register for our online courses or study groups of the same names. Learn more at FamilyLocket.com/services. To share your progress and ask questions, join our private Facebook group by sending us your book receipt or joining our courses to get updates in your email inbox each Monday, subscribe to our newsletter at FamilyLocket.com/newsletter. Please subscribe, rate and review our podcast. We read each review and are so thankful for them. We hope you’ll start now to Research Like a Pro.
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