RLP 173: RLPDNA Study Group 2 – Organize and Objective

Nicole (1s):
This is Research Like a Pro episode 173 RLP with DNA Study Group Part 2- Organize and Objective. Welcome to Research Like a Pro a Genealogy Podcast about taking your research to the next level, hosted by Nicole Dyer and Diana Elder accredited genealogy professional. Diana and Nicole are the mother-daughter team at FamilyLocket.com and the creators of the Amazon bestselling book, The Research Like a Pro a Genealogists Guide. I’m Nicole co-host of the podcast join Diana and me as we discuss how to stay organized, make progress in our research and solve difficult cases.

Nicole (42s):
Let’s go, hello and welcome to Research Like a Pro.

Diana (49s):
Hi, Nicole, how are you today?

Nicole (51s):
I’m doing well. How are you doing?

Diana (54s):
I am doing well also, we’re starting to get colder weather. I’m kind of sad. Summer’s ending, but we have to embrace the next season for you

Nicole (1m 4s):
At all. And it’s cold and windy outside. I mean, cold is relative, but it’s, you know, when it’s 60 degrees in Arizona, we think it’s cold. So it’s great. Yeah.

Diana (1m 15s):
I know after having been an Arizona there where it was a little bit warmer than 60, I have to agree with that. It’s so nice to have a change in season.

Nicole (1m 24s):
It is, and the kids are on fall break and they’re all outside riding their bikes right now and having fun

Diana (1m 29s):
And how great that it’s not so hot that they can be out there.

Nicole (1m 32s):
Yeah. So how’s your reading going? Have you been following up with your Scotch Irish book?

Diana (1m 38s):
Yes, I have. And it has been so fascinating. I am on the chapter now that’s talking about politics and government. So for anyone you didn’t hear this discussion a while ago, I’m reading a book by Wayland F Dunaway published in the 1940s, I believe its called the Scotch Irish of colonial Pennsylvania. And so he’s been talking in the first part all about the migration from Ulster, from Northern Ireland in the 1600s and early 1700s of this whole population of Scotch Irish. They were Scottish people who’d gone over to Ireland and then came on to the United States. Well, the colonies and a lot of them ended up in Pennsylvania and then went out to the frontier because by the time they got there, a lot of the land on the Eastern part of Pennsylvania was already settled.

Diana (2m 27s):
And so they headed out to the frontier to try to get land, but, you know, what’s the problem with the frontier model. You’ve got native Americans who are still living there. And so they ended up having these wars and the Quaker government of the Pennsylvania colony. It was not very supportive and they had some things that the scotch Irish felt were making it worse on the frontier, and they had all the representation in the government. And so they had a bit of an uprising and it changed the government there. And I just got to the part where they are rewriting the Pennsylvania constitution, so that the more a presentation of all the groups. So it’s been really exciting.

Nicole (3m 7s):
I think that’s so important to learn about these things and Pennsylvania is not one of the states you’re accredited in, so just remind us why you’re interested in the Scotch Irish.

Diana (3m 16s):
Well, because we have entire lines of our family history that we have not researched and we’re kind of stuck on and pretty sure they’re Scotch-Irish because we’ve got names like Frasier and the Welch’s that you are researching, the Briscoes, the Clintons, there’s a, so many of those surnames and they’re all coming out of the Carolinas, you know, Tennessee, just those common migration patterns that we’re seeing. And so I’m just hoping by learning more about this whole community. And one of the further sections in the book will be about the dispersion, you know, as they continue to move. I just think when we get stuck, we’ve got to learn more.

Diana (3m 56s):
And I like reading these kinds of books. I read a little bit every day so that I can make progress in my education.

Nicole (4m 3s):
That’s great. I think it’s fun to hypothesize that all that side of our family, that we don’t know much about we’re Scotch Irish, and it’s definitely a good hypothesis. And you also have the red hair and that’s got to come from somewhere

Diana (4m 16s):
That’s right. That is the Harris line, apparently really fun to think about and big holes on my pedigree chart. I think we’ll end up using some significant DNA, hopefully, you know, as we get going on some of those lines and we might end up using some white DNA, if we can find appropriate testers, there’s just a lot of possibilities. Now that we’ve added DNA to our research. Yes. We don’t just have to say it’s done. We can’t do anything.

Nicole (4m 45s):
Yeah. I think a lot of people have the sense that there is something more they can do. So they start looking at the DNA matches and trying to use some of the tools, but we’ve been getting a lot of client requests lately from people who want to research their research question themselves, but they just need a little guidance. And so we’ve been doing DNA consultations and it seems like typically the guidance that we give is right in line with following the steps of the Research Like a Pro with DNA process that we’ve figured out. And once you do those steps, then you really have a strong foundation for using the DNA matches to provide evidence for a research question, which is what I think most people want to do, but they’re just not sure how to do it.

Nicole (5m 26s):
You know, it’s one thing to find DNA matches who might have the surname that you’re looking for, or to use a tool and get a result of a cluster analysis and not really know what to do with it. And then to go forward with actually easy in the process to make a research plan, to go further with them, and then write a report that all just forces you to try to use what you’ve found as evidence toward your research question, which I think is the most challenging step that people have. I think a lot of the time people want to find out answer before they write anything, but it’s usually in writing your report, that you are able to make some connections and find a way to use your evidence to help you get further in the case.

Diana (6m 8s):
Right? And we teach how to do every step of it along the way. In fact, I just reviewed the report of one of our e-course members who did the Research Like a Pro with DNA e-course. And I was so impressed with how everything came together in the report. Following the process really helps you along the way, and you’re not out there floundering.

Nicole (6m 27s):
It’s so true. So for announcements, we’ve got a study group in the spring, which will be Research Like a Pro with DNA starting February 16th and registration will be in December. Then we’ve got the fall study group, which will be just Research Like a Pro. And that’ll be beginning in September of 2022. So if you’re thinking about doing the study groups or you want to join us as a peer group leader, please check out our website and we’d love to have you, even if you’re not sure if you’re ready yet to be a peer group leader, you might be who knows, just let us know that you’re interested and we’ll help you figure that out. And our newsletter has coupon deals in it. So make sure you subscribe to that so that when we have a sale, you’ll get notified.

Diana (7m 10s):
Well, great. Let’s jump into our discussion for today. This is a continuation of my study group project with the DNA study group. And if you’ve listened to the previous episode, I talked all about how I’m returning to my Cynthia Dillard Royston’s brick wall of who is her father. And I love doing the study group because it makes me work on one of my own projects. Otherwise, I get so busy with client work and with doing fun things like these podcasts and writing blog posts and giving presentations that sometimes my own projects go by the wayside. So I always love it when I get to return to one of my brick walls.

Diana (7m 50s):
So I’m really excited because I am using the DNA of my second cousin twice removed Victor Parker. And he is two generations closer to Cynthia, which has fabulous on working with DNA. So I would have only received about 3% of her DNA or even less. And Victor would have received about 12.5% of her DNA. So that’s a huge difference. So I should be able to find more matches that will be relevant to this case. And since she is, Victor’s, great-grandmother should be able to figure something out.

Diana (8m 29s):
Right?

Nicole (8m 31s):
Right. So the next step in the study group is to create a diagram of your close matches, showing common ancestors between you and the matches. So for your assignment, you weren’t using your own matches, but Victor’s matches. So you created a diagram for him. So the purpose of this assignment is really to help you practice with diagramming and diagramming is so important when you’re using DNA, because it’s all about using the evidence of the DNA matches. And they’re traced line back to an ancestor that you believe is shared between you and really the premise of DNA evidence is that you are sharing DNA with these people because you both received that DNA from a common ancestor.

Nicole (9m 18s):
And so the hope is that you can show that that DNA share with the person comes from that ancestor and not from some other ancestor. Right.

Diana (9m 25s):
Right. And I was trying to make sense of Victor’s DNA. And so the previous steps I had done some clustering, I created a Leeds chart. So it was pretty fun to then go ahead and diagram. Some of his closest matches just to see who those matches were, you know, which side of the family are they on. And it didn’t take that long when you have those closer matches. Often if you’ve put a tree out there, other people have trees and it will say, this is your common ancestor. So I was able to use a lot of those common ancestor hints and people’s trees to quickly build the diagrams of his closer matches. And then the one that I really wanted to focus on of course is the Royston matches.

Diana (10m 5s):
So I had previously done some work with that because they also matched me. And in a previous project, I think either last year or the year before I created a diagram. So I went back and just reviewed that attitude a bit to make sure that I had a nice cluster. And this cluster turned out to be matches from two of Cynthia sons, Robert and Richard Royston my ancestors, Robert. And then his brother was Richard Royston. And the reason I wanted to focus a bit on these two was that they had moved out to Texas and they were not involved. All the pedigree collapsed that was back with the siblings that stayed in Alabama.

Diana (10m 50s):
And I thought that would be really valuable to separate out these matches a bit. And so I did have these two nice clusters. So I created that to show how they all connect back to Victor. And it reminded me that there was a second cousin that I had found who also is a great granddaughter of Cynthia in this case is also two generations closer than me. And so I need to reach out again and see if I can access her results. It kind of helped me see that there was another person I could use in the testing.

Nicole (11m 25s):
Yeah, that’s great. That’s one of the really great benefits of diagramming is that you can see all of the matches that you have. And then you notice things like, oh, this person is closer generationally as compared to all these other matches, or you might notice, oh, this is a patrilineal line unbroken to the ancestor. I can have this person why test, you know, you can notice those things and it really helps you see all the evidence you’ve gathered so far toward whatever objective you’re currently working on in that phase. You know, for this assignment, you’re kind of trying to show that you have enough DNA matches on the right side of the family, that you’ll be able to pursue the objective that you’re choosing.

Diana (12m 2s):
It’s interesting to see in families that sometimes you just have a lot of people in one family that tests, whether they had a lot of descendants, or if there’s somebody in the family, you know, that says, Hey, I took this test. You guys to take it too. I always wonder about that. How sometimes we have clusters of people in one family and then another descendant doesn’t have anybody that tested. It’s interesting.

Nicole (12m 24s):
I’ve wondered that too. And I have noticed that a lot of the people in Utah that they test a lot, I think it’s because Ancestry DNA is based in Utah and there’s a high interest in family history among that group. But then also there’s just some people who didn’t have a lot of descendants, like you said. And I think that makes a big difference if there’s only 10 descendants of that person. And none of them have really been interested in family history. Maybe none of them have tested,

Diana (12m 51s):
Right? Well, Cynthia had 14 children. Granted, I think three of the boys died in the civil war. And so they wouldn’t have any descendants, but that still leaves 11, at least 10 people that married and had children. And yet Victor’s closest matches are through these two brothers, Robert and Richard that have a lot of matches. So it’s just interesting.

Nicole (13m 14s):
Right? And you can also notice patterns of Victor might match children of Robert and Richard and not children of another line. But then if you ask that other person to share their matches with you, you might notice that they match children of another of Cynthia’s children because they just happened to inherit the same segments.

Diana (13m 32s):
You’re right. That’s, that’s such a good point, which is why we need to do multiple testers, especially when we’re going further back in time, the more and more people, the more coverage we get of that DNA, the better. So doing the diagram is always one of my favorite steps. I love seeing the pieces come together for me, it’s a puzzle and I love puzzles. And so it’s fun to put the pieces of this puzzle of this family and the DNA together, and then see if things work. So I did my diagrams and then I also use the color dots on Ancestry. It was fun because I started with a blank slate. Victor had given me permission to do whatever I needed with his matches to make progress on this. And he hadn’t done anything with it.

Diana (14m 12s):
So I used some color dots to name some of these different groups. And that’s always fun.

Nicole (14m 19s):
You know, when I get started with a project, I set up the Ancestry dot system and I really like the certain way that I do it. I’m just used to doing it that way. And so I always kind of set it up that way and

Diana (14m 32s):
Yeah, I did something similar.

Nicole (14m 33s):
It helps me. The next step in the process is to write out your real research objective with identifying this person uniquely and time, and then seeing what you want to find out. We have talked in the past about creating an overarching research objective, kind of how we do for a client research, where we have phases within that overarching objective, where, you know, the first phase we might do one thing. And the second phase, we might do another thing like, you know, eliminating candidates or working with Y DNA or working with autosomal DNA. So when there’s a big question like this back far in time, it takes multiple phases usually. So tell us about the phases of research.

Nicole (15m 14s):
You have, tell us your research objective after you wrote it all out and where you’re at.

Diana (15m 19s):
Okay. So when I first started this, I had my basic objective. My overarching question is who was the father of Cynthia Dillard born 1816 in Georgia and died 1882 in Collin county, Texas Cynthia married Thomas Beverly Royston about 1833 in Georgia or Alabama Cynthia’s father would have been born before 1796 and resided in Georgia in the early 1800s. So I have a little bit of a hypothesis in there. You know, what I have figured out that Cynthia’s father likely would have done? So my first phase was to research all the likely candidates in Georgia in the 1820 and 1830 census records that had a daughter that could be Cynthia of the appropriate age.

Diana (16m 2s):
And I had a spreadsheet. I did this for a Research Like a Pro traditional study group. I think I had 10 candidates and I just methodically went through each one of them. And I was able to eliminate all of them, but one, because they ended up having probate or there were marriage records for the children and all of the children in the household would be accounted for, you know, there was some reason. And so on my research logs in, and in my report, I also stated why they were eliminated and then ended up with just this one, Susan Dillard in 1830 in Muskogee county, Georgia. And I never could figure out anything more about her, where she came from, where she went, who her husband was.

Diana (16m 46s):
And she ended up having a female that is a possible Cynthia. So, you know, she’s still hanging around out there. So I decided that I needed to go to DNA because documentary research pretty much came up with a no. And if, you know, for any of our longtime listeners or followers, you know, that I researched George w Dillard for years thinking that there was so many things that connected him to Cynthia. And yes, there were lots of things that connected. And then just last year, someone who was reading my blog posts and she had the Bible pages that showed the place marker for Cynthia, that child was actually a different woman, a Mariah, I can’t remember the other name, she had two names.

Diana (17m 26s):
And so we figured out that it wasn’t Cynthia.

Nicole (17m 30s):
So you had a tick mark on this pre 1850 census that you were thinking could have been Cynthia, but then when George w Dillard’s family was fleshed out through the Bible pages, there wasn’t any room left for Cynthia.

Diana (17m 43s):
That’s exactly right. Plus, Victor had attached George to his tree and through lines showed absolutely no matches. And George w has descendants out there. And so that was like, yeah, okay. Absolutely nothing is coming through with the DNA. So, Nope, that’s not right. So that was my first phase. You know, I just hit the documentary evidence as hard as I could. And so then phase two, which is what I did in just the first part of the study group, as part of the analyze, do you had worked on this with me and created a network graph for Victor Parker’s DNA. And I remembered I had that. So I pulled that out to see if I could get some kind of an idea.

Diana (18m 26s):
Is there a Dillard cluster anywhere in this big network graph? And when I did some real work on analyzing that I did find a cluster. And when I looked at that little cluster, I saw it was connected to those two Royston brothers that were not part of the pedigree collapsed. And this little Dillard match separated out nicely and was connected to those two that I had diagrammed to. At first, I didn’t know who was in it. The once I started looking at the trees of these people, I found several trees that were going to a Josiah Dillard, whose father was Elijah Dillard. And so multiple independent matches that had this line back to these Dillard men.

Diana (19m 13s):
So that got me really excited. I think I called you, I think I found a place to research. And so I am hypothesizing now that this Elijah, who was born 1814 in Georgia and died in 1882, which is interesting that same year Cynthia died, but he went to Alabama. I’m hypothesizing that possibly he’s a brother. And so that is where the connection could be. Great. So anyway, that was kind of a short phase. I didn’t write up a report or anything about that, but I needed to find something to work on. So then that leads me to my next phase, and that is going to be researching Elijah.

Diana (19m 53s):
Now that I found this cluster DNA matches. I want to research Elijah thoroughly. It’s easier to research men. It’s sad to say, but the women were not named as many records. And that was one of the problems with Cynthia. You know, I researched everything I could on her husband, but nothing was mentioning her until too late until she went to Texas practically. So now that I’ve got this man that I can research and tax records and probate and land, and hopefully trace him more, maybe I can find a clue to his father, which could be the father of Cynthia as well. So that’s my third phase that I am doing for the study group.

Nicole (20m 32s):
I’m glad that the network graph was able to reveal a cluster of matches that, you know, are related on the Royston side, where you don’t have any idea of another ancestral couple in your tree that they belong to. So it’s a good hypothesis that they are a more distant ancestral couple on that Dillard line and researching that Elijah is such a great idea. It sounds like a strong hypothesis. I’m excited to see what you can find.

Diana (20m 58s):
I am too. So I created an objective based on that. So this is what I wrote the objective of this research phase is to test the hypothesized biological sibling connection between Elijah Dillard and Cynthia Dillard Royston, Elijah Dillard was born about 1814 in Georgia and died on six September, 1886 in coffee county, Alabama. Cynthia was born about 1816 in Georgia and died in 1882 in Collin county, Texas, Cynthia, Mary Thomas, Beverly Royston about 1833 in Georgia or Alabama. So there I go, I have an objective and I know I know what to do with the documentary research. I am going to be doing some exploring of DNA tools as also part of my research project to see if I can find some additional evidence with the DNA, but it’s really fun to have something new, to work on and a new Dillard person to research, which I found through the DNA.

Diana (21m 53s):
Yeah,

Nicole (21m 53s):
I think you hit the jackpot. I really hope that it pans out. I’m in a kind of a similar phase with the case study I’m working on where I’ve found a hypothesized sibling and just trying to research them and they are also in Georgia. So maybe we can both make connections in Georgia.

Diana (22m 9s):
That would be great. Here’s two good success with our projects. It’s just fun to be making progress and moving forward when you feel like you’re just kind of stymied that’s when you can get frustrated. So it’s exciting to have something new to do

Nicole (22m 23s):
It is. And that’s one of the really great benefits of using DNA is that, you know, when the documentary research just dries up and you can’t find a clue and you’re kind of stuck, it’s nice to be able to go to DNA, to find some hints that you can feel pretty confident that they’re grounded in an actual biological connection, rather than just researching random people with the same surname. And then use that confidence that you have to kind of seek a connection to your person,

Diana (22m 52s):
Right? I would never have picked this alight to Dillard out of all the Dillards that are in Alabama this time period. And he didn’t show up. There’s no Elijah’s showing up in Georgia because I’m guessing, you know, they moved into Alabama early. So I would never have picked him out as a candidate to research. There’s a so many,

Nicole (23m 10s):
Right? Cause he’s a possible brother and you were looking for possible fathers and what could happen, who knows, but maybe the father of Cynthia and this Elijah, if they are siblings, maybe he died before he was even on a census in Georgia who knows, or maybe they moved really quickly to Alabama and he died there. It’s just, you never know.

Diana (23m 35s):
Yeah. It could have been over an Alabama territory. So there are a lot of scenarios now. So it’s going to be fun. I’m excited to keep researching and keep talking about it

Nicole (23m 46s):
On the podcast. All right. Well, thanks for sharing your project. And while our listeners, we hope that you will make progress in your research objectives as well. And we’ll talk to you again next week. All right. Goodbye everyone. Bye. Thank you for listening. We hope that something you heard today will help you make progress in your research. If you want to learn more, purchase our book Research Like a Pro a Genealogist Guide on Amazon.com and other booksellers. You can also register for our Research Like a Pro online course or join our next Study Group. Learn more at FamilyLocket.com to share your progress and ask questions. Join our private Facebook group by sending us your book receipt or joining our e-course or Study Group.

Nicole (24m 27s):
If you like what you heard and would like to support this podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review. We hope you’ll start now to Research Like a Pro.